holy shit
[quote]debraD wrote:
I’m an atheist but I still believe that being a dick increases your chances of being dicked around. It’s more of a mathematical question than spiritual IMO.[/quote]
No to the question in the title. Yes to this post.
[quote]skaz05 wrote:
Live your life and do good things if you want, but don’t expect any divine favoritism. Meanwhile the rest of the world will lie, cheat and steal their way to nirvana.[/quote]
It’s sad that this is true.
karma…what goes around comes around…it’s like the bully in school he’ll bully a bunch of people until he steps up to someone who won’t take his shit and knock his block off. If you do bad shit constantly your gonna have it coming to you, word gets around on the street quickly.
By the way DB, crazy-ass post you made there. What on earth did you read to learn all that jazz?
[quote]rasturai wrote:
karma…what goes around comes around…it’s like the bully in school he’ll bully a bunch of people until he steps up to someone who won’t take his shit and knock his block off. If you do bad shit constantly your gonna have it coming to you, word gets around on the street quickly.
By the way DB, crazy-ass post you made there. What on earth did you read to learn all that jazz?
[/quote]
Learn what? I’ve got two or three crazy-ass posts in this thread.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
If I found myself in the unlikely position that I had to rule over, govern and control significant populations, how would I go about keeping the masses in line?
Hmmmm… I MIGHT make up a story about some “entity” that lived in the sky (but could somehow communicate with people on earth, although no one ever saw it) and let people in to heaven or condemn them to hell (even though no one can prove that either) depending on how they behaved. I would kill, burn or crucify anyone who disagreed. That would probably work.
OR on a different part of the planet AROUND the same time (Amazing how the Agricultural Era appeared simultaneously in different world zones creating COMMON problems that were addressed with VERY similar solutions). I MIGHT make up a set of “noble truths” for people to live by so that they may reach “enlightenment” in one of their MANY lifetimes. I would comfort them that if this lifetime sucked, you can always come back as a PRINCE in your NEXT lifetime - as long as you are good…
I think that BOTH of those ideas would be GREAT! I could control the population, coerce them into giving me ten percent of their money (on top of taxes), I could use it as an excuse to exercise ANY policy that I wanted but that might be a little “distasteful”, I could influence marriage and children (and increase my tax/tithe base), I could even have sex with a bunch of little boys and cover it up and not have any consequences!
Did I mention I could avoid paying taxes?
Sounds WIN/WIN to me!
Who want’s to start a religion with me? C’mon, these idiots will believe ANYTHING! Who’s with me?
[/quote]
This is a flawed argument in many, many ways.
First of all the concept of religion first came into existence not as a way to rule, subjugate or coerce any civilization; it simply was a way for people who (at the time) had no contact with anyone outside their “tribes” to explain natural phenomena around them, ie earthquakes, floods, lightning, etc etc.
Secondly, while there certainly have been rulers who used religion to better organize and consolidate their power (Emperor Constantine being perhaps the best example), none of these rulers “invented” a religion. Religions started out as a way to explain things happening around them. As various civilizations sprang up around the Meditarranean basin and the Indian Ocean basins, these religions grew and changed, but in many ways the rulers simply adopted what was popular amongst the people in order to gain more legitimacy in the peoples’ eyes. Different cultures came into contact with one another as trade spread further and further across the continent and this helped introduce new religions that were simply variations of previous religions (Buddhism, Islam and Christianity to name a few).
Of course, there is the example of the concept of a “mandate of/from heaven” that was present during the Song and Tang dynasties in China, but again, this was not an invention of religion. You seem to assert that religion is a tool created specifically for the advancement of totalitarian regimes bent on subjugating those around them.
While religion has been used in this manner more often than not, religions were not created for this purpose whatsoever. The exist because people need to believe in something greater than themselves. But people also inherently need some sort of way to identify themselves and to belong to something. Religion fits this mold for the masses.
Regarding your “Agriculture Era”, this is easily explained and there is nothing “amazing” about it whatsoever. Civilizations grew larger and larger and the need for more advanced agricultural methods (in order to create food surpluses) became necessary. The Agriculture Era simply happened all over the globe at roughly the same time because of the latitudes in which they happened. Look at the areas in the Americas, Europe, the Middle East and Asia that flourished during this time. They all occurred along the same general latitude because these areas were the best-suited to grow a wide variety of crops.
Some people reject organized religion, and this is fine. But I think very little people actually reject the concept of a Higher Power. Even many atheists I talk to aren’t even aware that they are actually agnostics; people who simply accept that they do not understand or comprehend whatever it is that is “out there”. There are some who place more importance on the messenger than the message, but the reality is that these people are not wholly representative of any religion. They may be the most vocal, but they are in the minority. While this minority may be unfortunate, it is even more unfortunate to dismiss the concept of a Higher Power of any kind due to these sorts of people.
Faith is an essential part of being a human, and while this does not have to entail organized religion, it does entail a belief in Something bigger than ourselves. If we are our own Higher Power, than we are doomed, because we are inherently flawed. I don’t think this is a concept that is foreign to anyone. After all, like they say in the Marines: there aren’t any atheists in a foxhole. I think those who deny that there is any sort of Higher Power are being dishonest to a certain extent due to the feeling that a belief in such would lump them in with the crazies who are a part of ANY religion.[/quote]
It was more of a round about way of saying that I think Karma is a man made concept vs. a divine one. I was shooting for sarcasm rather than expressing a theory. I don’t have the energy for a drawn out religious debate, but I will make a few comments. I’ve seen too much bad shit happen to good people and vice-versa to give any credence whatsoever to a divine plan or a “god” that loves you. Look at the world - if there is someone “up there” pulling all of the strings then FUCK HIM - he’s an asshole.
But there isn’t, WE HUMANS are the assholes and are responsible for the pain and misery of our planet through the ignorance and shortsightedness of our actions and/or lack thereof. Religion is just a way to avoid responsibility: “the devil made me do it”, or “I must have been bad in former life, karma is catching up with me”. NO, you just made bad decisions! That’s it. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Evolution has a way of weeding out those who fail to adapt. The information age has no place for religion.
Faith is NOT an essential part of being human no more than believing in fairy tales is. We have created myth and metaphor throughout the ages to explain parts of our psyche that we couldn’t easily understand. Some of it has been interpreted literally and taken as “gospel” with no critical though applied. I can argue scientifically about the Big Bang theory of the creation of the universe, creationism and religious explanation cannot.
How about life? Prove that God created life… oh, you can’t? Well there are MANY well documented experiments where trace elements of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen (the same elements that were abundant when the earth was forming) placed in a vacuum and heat and electric shocks were applied (the same conditions on the early stages of earth). Within DAYS organic material began to form! Lipids, amino acids, and yes, eventually, DNA… Fast forward four billion years of evolution and here we are - It’s not GOD, it’s fucking science.
Faith falters before FACT.
AC, I’ll address your points one by one:
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The fact that bad things happen to good people and vice versa does not negate the possibility of a Higher Power. I can’t speak for the “God” people out there. Part of the whole Higher Power thing is that when shit happens, it may happen for reasons that we, as humans, don’t have the capacity to understand. To me anyways, a Higher Power isn’t something up in the sky or out in the ether somewhere that controls what happens. It is not the Great Big Equalizer and life is not a zero sum game.
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Religion is not a way to avoid responsibility; it is a way to put things that we don’t have the capacity to understand in some sort of manageable terms. “The devil made me do it” is a blatant over-simplification of what makes people do bad things and it is not a statement that expresses any sort of actual religious belief. The “devil” is just another term for whatever it is inside of us that makes us do bad shit.
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I agree that the Information Age has no place for religion or faith or belief in whatever Higher Power it is that people believe in. But that is an indictment of the Information Age much more than it is of the concept of spirituality.
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Your second paragraph almost makes my point for me. Of course the existence of God cannot be proven. But that is what faith is. Remember, we really don’t know how the universe was started. Some theories are certainly more sound than others, and I would say that the Big Bang Theory is much more sound than the book of Genesis. But a more pertinent question is: WHY was the universe created? No scientist can answer this. For many people, science is just a quantification of whatever it is that we don’t understand about the universe. No matter how much we learn, we will never know it all. Why? And is it important to understand how the universe works in regards to spirituality?
Keep in mind that religion ultimately exists as a spiritual guide. What is right and what is wrong. People originally used it to explain natural occurences that they didn’t understand and they figured that their behavior was what led to these bad things that they didn’t understand. So they changed their behavior to appease the “gods”. To this day we are still doing the same thing; but now what we don’t understand is far different thanks to advances in science and mathematics. Instead of sacrificing a goat or some shit like that, our idea of a “good life” is to treat others as we would have them treat us, plain and simple.
I understand your gripe about the “myths” and “metaphors” being taken literally. But this is not a problem with the concept of religion or Higher Powers or spirituality, it is a flaw in how some people treat religion. It’s an example of people using religion to strengthen their beliefs in the messenger rather than the message. I think your problem with the idea of religion lies with the messenger, not the message. Just because some people drive their cars irresponsibly doesn’t mean that we should condemn cars; we should condemn those who don’t know how to drive but get behind the wheel of something more powerful than us anyways.
DB - you pretty much summed it up for me. Pantheism comes pretty close but I usually stick with Agnostic.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Remember, we really don’t know how the universe was started. Some theories are certainly more sound than others, and I would say that the Big Bang Theory is much more sound than the book of Genesis. But a more pertinent question is: WHY was the universe created? No scientist can answer this. For many people, science is just a quantification of whatever it is that we don’t understand about the universe. No matter how much we learn, we will never know it all. Why? And is it important to understand how the universe works in regards to spirituality?[/quote]
The big bang theory agrees with observations. Genesis does not. In fact, under reasonable assumptions about energy conditions, a homogenous isotropic universe that undergoes expansion at some point must necessarily have a singularity. This can be shown using simple calculus. There is no religious text that describes anything resembling a credible cosmological model.
“Why was the universe created?” is a loaded question. And why can no scientist answer it? Because it is an unanswerable question. It’s like if asked you to tell me why unicorns don’t exist. There does not need to be a reason why unicorns don’t exist, they just don’t.
And counter point, one by one:
-
The whole “everything happens for some divine reason” argument is ridiculous. People make decisions that are selfish cruel and cause pain a suffering to other people. That’s it. There is not an other explanation. A ten year old child getting molested here in the US or another one in Iraq getting their arms and legs blown off because of a bomb dropped trying to kill a terrorist is NOT serving any purpose. It is a consequence of selfish HUMAN behavior - nothing more. If there WAS a “god” out there with the powers that ALL religious texts attribute to him and he allows this to happen then he is an asshole. Certainly not the “all loving, gather your flock” kinda guy… So religion has it wrong. And if they are wrong about that, they are most likely wrong about everything else. There isn’t a SINGLE shred of evidence to support ANY of it.
-
Heaven and Hell, God and Lucifer, Angels and Demons are all religious concepts. No more real than the three headed dog in the Harry Potter series. But people say things like “the devil made me do it” or they go into church and “confess their sins”. Rather than receiving a consequence, they are told to say ten Hail Mary’s and I’ll see you next week - “all is forgiven”. If that isn’t teaching irresponsibility, I don’t know what is! The fact that the Catholic Church has been molesting little boys for A LONG FUCKING TIME and there hasn’t been anyone locked up is just crazy. Same with those crazy Muslim muther fuckers blowing themselves up. It’s blatantly wrong, yet there isn’t a consequence. God sure must “love his flock” if he condones that type of behavior. It’s all just an excuse. It serves a selfish agenda, not a divine one. But the “all powerful” man upstairs seems to be fine with it. I call bullshit.
3 & 4) Religion and science have often been at odds, because science proves that religion is a bunch of made up bullshit. Most notably when Galileo was tried before an Inquisition in Rome and condemned to house arrest for the rest of his life for “daring” to suggest the heliocentric theory, that the earth revolves around the Sun. In fact it wasn’t until 1965 that the the Catholic Church revoked it’s condemnation of Galileo - I guess those pictures from space was enough evidence that he was right. But until then, EVERYONE believed the earth was flat, because they didn’t have the perspective to understand anything else. I submit for your consideration that event’s PRIOR to the Big Bang and other questions of “why” are simply beyond our current understanding, and that it will eventually be worked out and explained by science. The fact is that science has DISPROVED the divine origins of everything else, so why should the beginning of the universe be an exception?
As for spirituality, Go read The Dancing Wu Li Masters by Gary Zukov. It’s a discussion about quantum physics and draws some pretty spectacular parallels between physics and “spirituality”. There’s not a whole lot that’s “spiritual” about it.
My argument about religion is that it does NOT exist as a spiritual guide, but rather was evolved to keep populations of people “in line”. I mean the King James version of the bible, the most popular translation that is currently being used, bears the name of the King who “translated it more accurately”. The questions you need to ask yourself is not about whether or not you are going to heaven, it’s why does the Church need my money? or Why aren’t any Catholic priests in jail for child abuse? Those are the questions that come to MY mind.
As for what I believe in, I believe in the laws of Thermodynamics, Gravity, Electromagnetism and other proven laws of physics. Perhaps those “laws” are God. If so, then we are on the same page. But do I think that Jesus’ MARRIED mother was a virgin? Riiiiiiiiight… That’s just fucking ridiculous!
My karma ran over your dogma.
No, I do not believe in Karma, Karma like lots of things from the Hindu/Buddhist are heresies. However, I do believe in Heaven and Hell.
[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
My karma ran over your dogma.[/quote]
That doesn’t make any sense.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
is NOT serving any purpose.[/quote]
[Side note: Just wanting to state before hand that I’d like to read any theological arguments that you have read. If you can suggest any books or articles to be read, that would be great.]
You must be that omniscient person I have been hearing about, knowing if there is or is not any purpose in something. Of course there is a purpose in everything, can’t really say what, because there is not enough information. However, saying that there is no purpose in something is the philosophical equivalent to everything is nothing. Wrong, everything is something. Every event has a purpose, even if we do not recognize it.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
is it truly good if you only do something (or refrain from doing something) out of fear of retribution from whatever Higher Power you believe in? If you are tempted by things that should not tempt you in the first place (such as acts of revenge, for instance) is it really “good” if you resist this urge, or is it only “good” if the urge isn’t there to begin with? How much “karmic retribution” can you really expect if many of your acts of kindness are only aimed at furthering your own karmic standing in life? Does genuine altruism exist at all? If it does, is this the only path to “salvation”?[/quote]
It is truly good, only if you do something good, for good. On your question about urges, virtue would be the second option. One that has put out the fire of temptation and no longer has the urge, but just walks away is the “good” one.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
As for spirituality, Go read The Dancing Wu Li Masters by Gary Zukov. It’s a discussion about quantum physics and draws some pretty spectacular parallels between physics and “spirituality”. There’s not a whole lot that’s “spiritual” about it.
[/quote]
Be sure and also read How the Leopard Changed His Spots. Nothin like a little light reading for the weekend.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
You must be that omniscient person I have been hearing about, knowing if there is or is not any purpose in something. Of course there is a purpose in everything, can’t really say what, because there is not enough information. However, saying that there is no purpose in something is the philosophical equivalent to everything is nothing. Wrong, everything is something. Every event has a purpose, even if we do not recognize it.
[/quote]
You’re essentially claiming that the universe is deterministic? This is by no means proven.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
If I found myself in the unlikely position that I had to rule over, govern and control significant populations, how would I go about keeping the masses in line?
Hmmmm… I MIGHT make up a story about some “entity” that lived in the sky (but could somehow communicate with people on earth, although no one ever saw it) and let people in to heaven or condemn them to hell (even though no one can prove that either) depending on how they behaved. I would kill, burn or crucify anyone who disagreed. That would probably work.
OR on a different part of the planet AROUND the same time (Amazing how the Agricultural Era appeared simultaneously in different world zones creating COMMON problems that were addressed with VERY similar solutions). I MIGHT make up a set of “noble truths” for people to live by so that they may reach “enlightenment” in one of their MANY lifetimes. I would comfort them that if this lifetime sucked, you can always come back as a PRINCE in your NEXT lifetime - as long as you are good…
I think that BOTH of those ideas would be GREAT! I could control the population, coerce them into giving me ten percent of their money (on top of taxes), I could use it as an excuse to exercise ANY policy that I wanted but that might be a little “distasteful”, I could influence marriage and children (and increase my tax/tithe base), I could even have sex with a bunch of little boys and cover it up and not have any consequences!
Did I mention I could avoid paying taxes?
Sounds WIN/WIN to me!
Who want’s to start a religion with me? C’mon, these idiots will believe ANYTHING! Who’s with me?
[/quote]
That’s funny, because Judaism and Christianity and most other religions originated around a people that rebelled against their governments.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
My karma ran over your dogma.[/quote]
That doesn’t make any sense.[/quote]
You got no mojo.