T Nation

Do SERMs Work With Injectible T? Results Coming Soon

Seems that lot of members here, myself included, are wondering if a SERM will be able to maintain LH/FSH pulsation while on a TRT dose.

My current TRT protocol is:

T 84mg/w
Adex .25mg EoD
Hcg 125iu EoD

This last Monday 1/18 I have switched to:

T 84mg/w
Adex .25mg EoD
Clomid 50mg EoD <---- swapped for Hcg

Lab results incoming in about 3-4 weeks. Time needed to give Clomid a chance to build up the half-lives and do its thing.

Six days in so far. No estrogenic sides from Clomid, thank god. Testis not changing size for better or worse. A very very slight tesitcles ache which means the LH hasn’t kicked in yet. It’s too early now to draw conclusions AND I have been shutdown for the last 18 months, so we have to take that into consideration. It may take time for my hypothalamus-pituitary to spool up.

To provide some context regarding before and after blood work, here are my current TRT labs as of Monday 1/18/16:

Testosterone Total: 942 (250-1100)
Testosterone Free: 210 (46-224)
Testosterone Bioavailable: 500.6 (110-575)
SHBG: 21 (10-50)
Estradiol: 28 (<39)

Hematocrit: 45.8 (38.5-50.0)
Hemoglobin: 15.9 (13.2-17.1)

TSH: 1.7 (0.4-4.5)
fT3: 3.6 (2.3-4.2)
fT4: 1.3 (0.8-1.8)

Total Cholesterol: 218 (125-200) High
HDL Cholesterol: 55 (>=40)
LDL Cholesterol: 148 (<130) High
Triglycerides: 73 (<150)

Now we just have to wait for next 3-4 weeks for new bloods. I am hopeful.

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Labs on a SERM should include LH/FSH, TT, FT, E2

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I know this. LH/FSH incoming in 3 weeks. These are just pre numbers.

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We have run this experiment several times in the T replacement realm.

Most of us looked but could not find lab results showing active LH/FSH.

Probably impossible to find.

The cases are from a couple of guys who were on TRT with low sperm counts. Doctors put them on high dose SERM, probably clomid, and E2 went nuts, indicating high LH.

As a though experiment, take a young virile guy who want more T and takes a SERM and his T increases. As the guy already had T levels which would be a TRT target, we see the SERM working with good T levels.

The next progression is whether a SERM will work with the very high T, and in many cases high E2 from gear. The questing then is whether the SERM can block the effects of high T and maybe high E2 on a cycle. This partly depends on how one is managing E2 on cycle, use of AI etc. So there are some unknowns and questions about a possible need for increased SERM dosing with higher gear amounts. So while there may be some unanswered questions about SEAR+gear, the issues concerning use of a SERM during PCT are very clear cut.

Unfortunately, searching clomid+gear or clomid+cycle picks up mostly female fertility issues. Adding “male” to the search gets male fertility results.

In this thread, OP lgs is on TRT with normal TRT T levels and the first case applies.

Bloods will confirm it, at least for the TRT doses.

I’d like to be able to swap back and forth between T+HCG and T+SERM for future fertility concerns. Also just to keep the top end of HPTA alive throughout the years in case I ever have to come off. I doubt that I’ll have to but anything can happen.

sorry, i’m confused…

are you able to get LH and FSH, or no? and you didn’t have baseline for that done?

i would expect your SHBG to increase, by the way…

Ok, results are in and not good.

LH: <0.2 (1.5-9.3)
FSH: <0.7 (1.6-8.0)

Total T: 880 (250-1100)
Estradiol: 30 (<39)

All in all, SERM will NOT work with T injections.

Especially for you juice heads with multiple compounds and very high dosages, no go. You’ll have to wait for esters to clear before SERMs start working.

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how are your balls? Serious question

No real change. Same size, no ache. But it’s been only 4 weeks since the last HCG shot.

Thanks for doing this - Do you know what LH/FSH looks like for you on TRT + HCG?

Thanks Igs. While n=1 is certainly not conclusive, I strongly suggest that at this time we stop this recommendation of a SERM on cycle even if it means to err on the side of caution since hcg is available.

This too…

I concur. Cyco was against it right from the start, and made the interesting point that if it worked then there’d be no need for PCT.

I think the idea was to make the transition to PCT as smooth as possible more than to replace PCT altogether. Too bad though.

This. ^

Along with those whose blast and cruise being able to cruise with SERM short term, for fertility reasons. But it seems you may have to come off completely.

na I get that, in my mind it was really just a way of replacing hCG.

Does that also means that it is better to continue the use of hCG during the washout period after the cycle than to start the SERM as soon as possible?

Yes. Stop it around a week before PCT.