T Nation

Do SERMs Work With Injectible T? Results Coming Soon


#1

Seems that lot of members here, myself included, are wondering if a SERM will be able to maintain LH/FSH pulsation while on a TRT dose.

My current TRT protocol is:

T 84mg/w
Adex .25mg EoD
Hcg 125iu EoD

This last Monday 1/18 I have switched to:

T 84mg/w
Adex .25mg EoD
Clomid 50mg EoD <---- swapped for Hcg

Lab results incoming in about 3-4 weeks. Time needed to give Clomid a chance to build up the half-lives and do its thing.

Six days in so far. No estrogenic sides from Clomid, thank god. Testis not changing size for better or worse. A very very slight tesitcles ache which means the LH hasn’t kicked in yet. It’s too early now to draw conclusions AND I have been shutdown for the last 18 months, so we have to take that into consideration. It may take time for my hypothalamus-pituitary to spool up.

To provide some context regarding before and after blood work, here are my current TRT labs as of Monday 1/18/16:

Testosterone Total: 942 (250-1100)
Testosterone Free: 210 (46-224)
Testosterone Bioavailable: 500.6 (110-575)
SHBG: 21 (10-50)
Estradiol: 28 (<39)

Hematocrit: 45.8 (38.5-50.0)
Hemoglobin: 15.9 (13.2-17.1)

TSH: 1.7 (0.4-4.5)
fT3: 3.6 (2.3-4.2)
fT4: 1.3 (0.8-1.8)

Total Cholesterol: 218 (125-200) High
HDL Cholesterol: 55 (>=40)
LDL Cholesterol: 148 (<130) High
Triglycerides: 73 (<150)

Now we just have to wait for next 3-4 weeks for new bloods. I am hopeful.


#2

Labs on a SERM should include LH/FSH, TT, FT, E2


#3

I know this. LH/FSH incoming in 3 weeks. These are just pre numbers.


#4

We have run this experiment several times in the T replacement realm.


#5

Most of us looked but could not find lab results showing active LH/FSH.


#6

Probably impossible to find.

The cases are from a couple of guys who were on TRT with low sperm counts. Doctors put them on high dose SERM, probably clomid, and E2 went nuts, indicating high LH.

As a though experiment, take a young virile guy who want more T and takes a SERM and his T increases. As the guy already had T levels which would be a TRT target, we see the SERM working with good T levels.

The next progression is whether a SERM will work with the very high T, and in many cases high E2 from gear. The questing then is whether the SERM can block the effects of high T and maybe high E2 on a cycle. This partly depends on how one is managing E2 on cycle, use of AI etc. So there are some unknowns and questions about a possible need for increased SERM dosing with higher gear amounts. So while there may be some unanswered questions about SEAR+gear, the issues concerning use of a SERM during PCT are very clear cut.

Unfortunately, searching clomid+gear or clomid+cycle picks up mostly female fertility issues. Adding “male” to the search gets male fertility results.

In this thread, OP lgs is on TRT with normal TRT T levels and the first case applies.


#7

Bloods will confirm it, at least for the TRT doses.

I’d like to be able to swap back and forth between T+HCG and T+SERM for future fertility concerns. Also just to keep the top end of HPTA alive throughout the years in case I ever have to come off. I doubt that I’ll have to but anything can happen.


#8

sorry, i’m confused…

are you able to get LH and FSH, or no? and you didn’t have baseline for that done?

i would expect your SHBG to increase, by the way…


Dante's Fertility Protocol
#9

Ok, results are in and not good.

LH: <0.2 (1.5-9.3)
FSH: <0.7 (1.6-8.0)

Total T: 880 (250-1100)
Estradiol: 30 (<39)

All in all, SERM will NOT work with T injections.

Especially for you juice heads with multiple compounds and very high dosages, no go. You’ll have to wait for esters to clear before SERMs start working.


#10

how are your balls? Serious question


#11

No real change. Same size, no ache. But it’s been only 4 weeks since the last HCG shot.


Stupid Estrogen / Trestolone Oral Question
#12

Thanks for doing this - Do you know what LH/FSH looks like for you on TRT + HCG?


#13

Thanks Igs. While n=1 is certainly not conclusive, I strongly suggest that at this time we stop this recommendation of a SERM on cycle even if it means to err on the side of caution since hcg is available.


#14

This too…


#15

I concur. Cyco was against it right from the start, and made the interesting point that if it worked then there’d be no need for PCT.


#16

I think the idea was to make the transition to PCT as smooth as possible more than to replace PCT altogether. Too bad though.


#17

This. ^

Along with those whose blast and cruise being able to cruise with SERM short term, for fertility reasons. But it seems you may have to come off completely.


#18

na I get that, in my mind it was really just a way of replacing hCG.


#19

Does that also means that it is better to continue the use of hCG during the washout period after the cycle than to start the SERM as soon as possible?


#20

Yes. Stop it around a week before PCT.