DK's Paraworkout Protocol...

Not to be a dick, but has anyone else noticed that the OP is starting with roughly a 39" chest and 13" arms?

At 5’ 11"?

The extra calories in the “protocol” alone will make him grow like a weed, this is not going to be a worthwhile review for most (I hope).

[quote]Dave_ wrote:
Not to be a dick, but has anyone else noticed that the OP is starting with roughly a 39" chest and 13" arms?

At 5’ 11"?

The extra calories in the “protocol” alone will make him grow like a weed, this is not going to be a worthwhile review for most (I hope).
[/quote]

Kind of begs the question around the protocol in its entirety really…if everyone took in an extra x amount of calories and carbs around training would they grow more than they are now?

How much is it “the protocol” and how much is it “a shitload more cals and carbs around training”?

I’m not bashing the protocol at all.

It’s nothing new of course, it was ages ago that Dave Barr brought up the “pre is more important than post” thing, and personally I’ve been doing something similar for years, albeit without the exact ingredients (I’ve used WPH and WMS). The pulsing thing has been around for years too.

All I’m saying is that whilst the protocol may be worth it for someone at average height of maybe 220lbs+, this kid would grow simply from lifting and eating, in the most basic sense. I doubt very much that this protocol is worth the money for this particular individual, and I’m sure Biotest would agree.

[quote]Dave_ wrote:
Not to be a dick, but has anyone else noticed that the OP is starting with roughly a 39" chest and 13" arms?

[/quote]

Lol, no. I have conditioned myself to ignore internet numbers without pictures. It has backfired i guess.

I was more interested on the psychology of it anyway.

[quote]stevo_ wrote:
Dave_ wrote:
Not to be a dick, but has anyone else noticed that the OP is starting with roughly a 39" chest and 13" arms?

At 5’ 11"?

The extra calories in the “protocol” alone will make him grow like a weed, this is not going to be a worthwhile review for most (I hope).

Kind of begs the question around the protocol in its entirety really…if everyone took in an extra x amount of calories and carbs around training would they grow more than they are now?

How much is it “the protocol” and how much is it “a shitload more cals and carbs around training”?

[/quote]

That’s a good point, I mean the protocol is supposed to have specific types of carbs do different things, which I’m sure makes a difference. But how much of a difference, I don’t know.

I’m doing my own bastardized version of the protocol, with cheaper stuff and it works well for me.

[quote]Kerley wrote:
just thought id chime in and say i tried FINiBARS for the 1st time the other day and i got a say i noticed a difference, ability to do more reps and more sets, bigger better pump, very effective and taste Great. [/quote]

You think they do taste great? I was slightly disappointed in them compared to their regular bars. I mean, the PB is not bad, but they are no comparison to the Choco or cookie dough bars.

[quote]Dave_ wrote:
Not to be a dick, but has anyone else noticed that the OP is starting with roughly a 39" chest and 13" arms?

At 5’ 11"?

The extra calories in the “protocol” alone will make him grow like a weed, this is not going to be a worthwhile review for most (I hope).
[/quote]

C’mon Dave, it’s “DK”, not “OP”. And I wouldn’t say you are being a dick, but bringing up a good point. I guess we can talk about starting points here.

Looking at your profile pic you have definitely been putting in time in the weight room, and are pretty good sized. Not to take anything away from your work - but I would guess your somatype is closer to the meso, or endo-meso type. You’re naturally a bigger guy.

I am closer to the ecto, or ecto-meso type. Actually what is usually referred to here as “skinny-fat”. I started lifting back in high school. I was about 5’9 or 5’10, and weighed 130 or so pounds. I couldn’t bench 100lbs. I wasn’t ‘ripped with abz’, just a weaker kid with skinny arms and a bit of a belly. I still remember two things the year I took football. 1 - I was considered underweight by BMI. 2 - my goal for the off season conditioning was to be able to bench 135lbs. I didn’t make it. Despite me training like everyone else, I wasn’t getting the results. Now, I was training like an idiot and had crappy nutrition, but everyone else did too! I labeled myself a hardgainer for years until I learned more about training and nutrition, and finally started getting some decent gains.

I highly doubt when you started you weighed 130lbs and couldn’t bench 100lbs, so in your view I am still a weak, know-nothing newbie…jeesh, I might be the same size now, as you were when you started! But I’ve put on 40-50lbs, and put a few hundred pounds on my lifts - nothing great, but nothing to sneeze at either.

Hopefully that makes sense, and hopefully you don’t take offense - just trying to explain. My apologies if someone was misled by this.

[quote]stevo_ wrote:
Dave_ wrote:
Not to be a dick, but has anyone else noticed that the OP is starting with roughly a 39" chest and 13" arms?

At 5’ 11"?

The extra calories in the “protocol” alone will make him grow like a weed, this is not going to be a worthwhile review for most (I hope).

Kind of begs the question around the protocol in its entirety really…if everyone took in an extra x amount of calories and carbs around training would they grow more than they are now?

How much is it “the protocol” and how much is it “a shitload more cals and carbs around training”?
[/quote]

Yeah when they put this out I questioned that as well - will it just get people to grow because they are actually taking in a bunch more calories, with most of those calories around workout time when it’s most beneficial? And with 86 grams of protein around that time, it’s probably more than a lot of people would even get in a day who weren’t paying that much attention to their nutrition. Thus would it really have mattered if they would have gotten it just from a couple hunks of chicken, rather than these highly priced formulations?

Of course, you have the guys CT was training as well as himself that are apparently getting great results from it.

[quote]DK wrote:
Some starting stats:

Weight: 179.4

Ab Skinfold: 28

Chest: 99
Arm: 33
Waist: 87.5
Thigh: 61

WK1 Stats:

Weight: 186.2

Ab Skinfold: 25

Chest: 104
Arm: 33.5
Waist: 88
Thigh: 62

WK2 Stats:

Weight: 186.2

Ab Skinfold: 24

Chest: 105
Arm: 34
Waist: 87.5
Thigh: 63

Appears all the numbers went in the right direction this week, minus no overall weight changes. On a ‘subjective’ level, it does seem my chest is bigger, and my ab region is slightly more defined. Let’s see what the third week brings me.
[/quote]

WK3 Stats:

Weight: 186.6

Ab Skinfold: 25

Chest: 106
Arm: 34
Waist: 88
Thigh: 63.5

Not too big of changes, not sure why, weights are telling a different story as does the mirror. Just as an FYI what I’m doing, I am heading into my 4th week here, after that, my 5th will be a deload, but I will continue with the protocol for some recovery/supercompensation help. I think the only change will be the amount of peptopro, I think instead of 20g per, I will have to knock it down to 12g instead of 20g for it to last through the week. I’ll measure again at the end of this week, as well as after my deload one, to see if there is any jump from a week of recovery.

No offence taken DK, in fact thank you for the well thought out reply.

Actually, just for your interest, I am almost exactly your height (about 1/8" under 5’11") and began training at around 150lbs. Granted I was stronger but in terms of size, an ecto is simply an underfed and undertrained meso.

Somatotypes are a very flawed and pretty much useless idea, don’t place limits on yourself based on some textbook nonsense.

I just think that your money and efforts could be better spent, that’s all. I made my fastest gains when I worked in a warehouse over the summer and ate donuts and sandwiches all day long. If money is not an issue, then by all means go for it.

[quote]DK wrote:
Kerley wrote:
just thought id chime in and say i tried FINiBARS for the 1st time the other day and i got a say i noticed a difference, ability to do more reps and more sets, bigger better pump, very effective and taste Great.

You think they do taste great? I was slightly disappointed in them compared to their regular bars. I mean, the PB is not bad, but they are no comparison to the Choco or cookie dough bars.[/quote]

perhaps no carbs for 2 weeks before i ate them made them taste better Lol

[quote]DK wrote:
stevo_ wrote:
Dave_ wrote:
Not to be a dick, but has anyone else noticed that the OP is starting with roughly a 39" chest and 13" arms?

At 5’ 11"?

The extra calories in the “protocol” alone will make him grow like a weed, this is not going to be a worthwhile review for most (I hope).

Kind of begs the question around the protocol in its entirety really…if everyone took in an extra x amount of calories and carbs around training would they grow more than they are now?

How much is it “the protocol” and how much is it “a shitload more cals and carbs around training”?

Yeah when they put this out I questioned that as well - will it just get people to grow because they are actually taking in a bunch more calories, with most of those calories around workout time when it’s most beneficial? And with 86 grams of protein around that time, it’s probably more than a lot of people would even get in a day who weren’t paying that much attention to their nutrition. Thus would it really have mattered if they would have gotten it just from a couple hunks of chicken, rather than these highly priced formulations?

Of course, you have the guys CT was training as well as himself that are apparently getting great results from it.[/quote]

Yeah look i don’t want to start the whole debate but i doubt its anywhere near as magical as some people think, and far better than most of the naysayers think. As usual truth is generally somewhere in the middle of the two extremes.

And as for CT, with all respect im kinda more interested in the “average guy’s” response to the protocol rather than someone who works out for a living and has unlimited access to free supps, best gyms/ equipment etc etc. (this is not a slight on CT or his training ethics etc etc so please no one take it that way)

[quote]Dave_ wrote:
No offence taken DK, in fact thank you for the well thought out reply.

Actually, just for your interest, I am almost exactly your height (about 1/8" under 5’11") and began training at around 150lbs. Granted I was stronger but in terms of size, an ecto is simply an underfed and undertrained meso.

Somatotypes are a very flawed and pretty much useless idea, don’t place limits on yourself based on some textbook nonsense.

I just think that your money and efforts could be better spent, that’s all. I made my fastest gains when I worked in a warehouse over the summer and ate donuts and sandwiches all day long. If money is not an issue, then by all means go for it.

[/quote]

Well, I don’t agree with your view on somatypes, but also don’t completely disagree. At work there is two guys - one is a classic ecto, and one an endo. I don’t care how much the ecto will lift, take steroids, etc, he will never be able to make it to the size the endo could. And I don’t care if the endo got cancer and underwent chemo, he would never be the size of the endo. Just the physical bone structure is different.

There is big amounts of change either could do, putting on quite a bit of muscle, getting smaller, etc, but there is some limit that either could make it too. This is definitely a extreme example, and most people fall more in the middle, but thought I would make the point. Myself, I’m sure I could hit over 200, maybe 10-15lbs over that - but without hitting the roids probably not much more than that.

So essentially I’m saying an average natural guy can add about 80 or so pounds of muscle over his lifting career, which I would say should be pretty apt. Some more, some less.

On a semi-unrelated note - is this a first for T-Nation??!?! An actual reply back and forth that didn’t result to name-calling and flaming back and forth?!? :stuck_out_tongue:

i tried my own version of this today, same casein hydrolysate DK is using, so what i did was:

-60mins 2 scoops ON whey
-45 2 FINiBARs
-30 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
-15 2 scoops Surge Recovery
during the workout 20g casein hydrolysate
30 minutes after the workout 20g casein hydrolysate
60 minutes after workout 2 scoops muscle milk
(am still waiting on my order of alpha-gpc)

so the effect on just one training session is, BIG pumps, pumps in places am not even directly training Lol, ability to bang out more reps than the week before also i nearly tossed my cookies a few times so i next time i do it ill use just 1 of everything.

WK4 Day 1

Wow, finally a decent bench day! Took 4 Alpha-GPC, so not sure if that is why or not, but today was working up to a heavy single, +10lb from my max before I started, and that’s also after about 4 weeks of hard training. Also was able to notch up the weight in a couple exercises. Like usual, energy was high throughout, as well as a good ‘pump’.

WK4 Day 2

Epic Para-workout fail.

-30 FINiBAR
0 CH/SWF/Creatine

  • 30 Fazoli’s twice baked lasagna and about 4 breadsticks

Life happens I guess. Have some things going on that have been keeping me busy and a bit stressed out so missed out on this day to do the proper one. Workout still went well, and actually PR’d my dead by a few lbs. It did seem I had a bit of lack of focus that I’ve been used to, and was a bit more out of it. Not sure if this was due to the missing para-workout pieces, or just the general business/stress that is going on.

WK4 Day 3

Good workout. High energy throughout, headphones are driving me crazy because they keep falling out, this is the third pair i got that are supposed to stay in, and don’t. Any suggestions?

Another revelation I had today was it’s my fourth week. I’m still hitting it hard. I’m still having energy. I should have been done for last week with the volume of training I’ve been doing. Just realizing this, I believe the protocol is doing well for recovery.

WK4 Day 4:

Felt strong today, notched up the weights again on most exercises. 4 weeks down of hard training and I’m still standing. Impressive, usually 4th week is deload, and I definitely would need it. I have been debating doing a 2 hard 1 easy periodization scheme because even the 3-1 felt a little rough.

Really impressed with the workload I could keep up with throughout this protocol the past 4 weeks. I’ll take measurements again tomorrow, and will let you know how next weeks deload goes, plus the final measurements then.

I’ve been using CT’s protocol for the last couple of weeks (except for the Surge Recovery), and while I’m waiting for a decent amount of time to really assess the efficacy (or even how much of a change I’ll have for my next show vs last May), I will attest to moving some damn big numbers, getting great pumps, leaving the gym not feeling totally exhausted, and having several regular gym goers comment that I look ‘thicker’ overall.

That being said, I believe the rational behind Biotest/CT making use of more experienced trainers instead of the average gym rat is simply because most people are not training as hard as they truly need to be (I believe we have several threads by PX every week stating this fact -lol), and tend to overestimate their efforts. Not a slight or anything, but if I had a new approach/supplement that I wanted to market, I’d find someone who had already come damn close to maximizing his/her potential, who understood a great deal about training, nutrition, and supplementation, and then let them try my new approach, knowing full well that they will give their undivided, full blown, 100% effort to actually seeing more progress (possibly having thought that they had maxed out already after years of training).

S

Sorry if I missed this, but are you keeping carbs pariworkout only? Or how is the rest of your diet throughout the day? Thanks

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve been using CT’s protocol for the last couple of weeks (except for the Surge Recovery), and while I’m waiting for a decent amount of time to really assess the efficacy (or even how much of a change I’ll have for my next show vs last May), I will attest to moving some damn big numbers, getting great pumps, leaving the gym not feeling totally exhausted, and having several regular gym goers comment that I look ‘thicker’ overall.

That being said, I believe the rational behind Biotest/CT making use of more experienced trainers instead of the average gym rat is simply because most people are not training as hard as they truly need to be (I believe we have several threads by PX every week stating this fact -lol), and tend to overestimate their efforts. Not a slight or anything, but if I had a new approach/supplement that I wanted to market, I’d find someone who had already come damn close to maximizing his/her potential, who understood a great deal about training, nutrition, and supplementation, and then let them try my new approach, knowing full well that they will give their undivided, full blown, 100% effort to actually seeing more progress (possibly having thought that they had maxed out already after years of training).

S
[/quote]

Sorry if you’ve explained it before, but why not Surge Recovery?