Ditch Westside for 5/3/1?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
41

[quote]dankid wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
If you aren’t at Westside, you’re not doing westside. Stop spreading fallacy. You can be a Westside guy, but you have to have trained there first.

This is dumb. Its still westside. There are two reasons you see all these threads about why 5/3/1 is better than westside blah blah blah.

  1. All the bros on this site know that 5/3/1 is currently the in thing to do, so everyone and their sister is recommending it.

  2. 5/3/1 is a program, Westside is a system or template. You cant be a complete moron and get results on westside, but you can with a program.

I agree. Stop spreading fallacy, because you haven’t made gains. It isn’t Westside’ fault, its your fault that you didn’t get stronger.[/quote]

It is not Westside, unless you go there and you learn from Louie. Then it is not Westside, sorry. 5/3/1 is from Jim Wendler, he’s a Westside guy. Dave Tate is a Westside guy, they trained at Westside. If you are following the stuff that they do at Westside, you are using the conjugate system, not Westside.

I think, and have even read again Louie say he gets pissed off when people say to him, I am doing Westside but I’m not getting any gains. You know why the guy that owns Westside gets pissed off when people say they are doing Westside, because he doesn’t know who the fuck they are, and has never seen them in his gym. So how could they be doing Westside, Westside is a a fucking gym. Not a workout.

If you want to know what to call what Louie talks about and teaches people, it’s the conjugate system.

42

Listening to these people sounds like Louie has five hundred people in his gym training. No wonder his face is always red, I would be pissed off too if people said they trained at my gym and were not getting any gains. Probably kill myself.

43

[quote]dankid wrote:
^^^^^ Says the annonymous troll at the other end of the internet.[/quote]

So what were your numbers again?

How many times have you competed in powerlifting in the past year?

44

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
dankid wrote:
^^^^^ Says the annonymous troll at the other end of the internet.

So what were your numbers again?

How many times have you competed in powerlifting in the past year?[/quote]

Ya, I dont have elite strength levels, and im not a competative powerlifter. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that you are a troll and offer nothing to this discussion.

45

Oh wait, saw you posted this in your other thread:

Squat 375x1
Bench 255x1
Deadlift 375x1

You should not be giving advice.

46

Dankid,

Tho I don’t doubt your numbers… do you have any videos of your lifts?

You’ve given quite a bit of advice and calling people trolls for someone time, I would just like to see some of the words you’ve given have actually been applied

47

jerkoffs,
this is the Original Poster.
no one appreciates your corrections on terminology.

we all know im not really at westside otherwise i wouldnt be asking you anything,
but just doing what louie tells me to do.

we all know im not really at westside
and we all know i dont know how to work the westside methods
otherwise i wouldnt be stuck at 425/320/470

i noticed you guys get interviews from louie and tate
so i figured THIS would be the place to have a log and have bros help me along
but i soon noticed everyone on 5/3/1

lifts are coming up again
i think i was choosing the wrong assistance exercises, is all.

its going to take awhile for me to figure out which lifts help the other lifts in which ways

48

The best part of 5/3/1 for me so far is that if you stick to it, it forces you to train optimally, rather than maximally (to borrow Jim’s phrase). I found when I was doing a Westside inspired plan I couldnt help but go heavy all of the time. This was my fault, not the systems, and I think after having done 5/3/1 I would probably be more successful at my previous routine if I chose to return to it.

49

[quote]StoneOfFire wrote:

jerkoffs,
this is the Original Poster.
no one appreciates your corrections on terminology.

we all know im not really at westside otherwise i wouldnt be asking you anything,
but just doing what louie tells me to do.

we all know im not really at westside
and we all know i dont know how to work the westside methods
otherwise i wouldnt be stuck at 425/320/470

i noticed you guys get interviews from louie and tate
so i figured THIS would be the place to have a log and have bros help me along
but i soon noticed everyone on 5/3/1

lifts are coming up again
i think i was choosing the wrong assistance exercises, is all.

its going to take awhile for me to figure out which lifts help the other lifts in which ways[/quote]

good thread anyway

50

[quote]Dave284 wrote:
The best part of 5/3/1 for me so far is that if you stick to it, it forces you to train optimally, rather than maximally (to borrow Jim’s phrase). I found when I was doing a Westside inspired plan I couldnt help but go heavy all of the time. This was my fault, not the systems, and I think after having done 5/3/1 I would probably be more successful at my previous routine if I chose to return to it.[/quote]

I could be way off base here , but it seems (based on my own limited experience) that both styles of programming can be useful to some lifters . I’m not saying to swith programs on a monthly basis , so dont anybody twist that around . maybe after a prolonged time using a conjugate periodization template , switching to lighter loads while emphasizing the number of reps can stimulate new strength gains .

just something that I’ll be trying .

51

how about we talk numbers, ey?

i used rippetoe’s starting strength as my first program
got to 400/300/400

doing my best to understand the rantings of a madman,
i am now at 425/320/470
this is with westside methods.
louie’s free articles and videos on the net,
and tates westside seminar.

so what kinda advancements are you good bros making on 5/3/1?
where were you before?
where are you now?
maybe even
what were you doing before to get to 5/3/1?

i could buy 5/3/1
even if just for an interesting read

but i have yet to buy louie’s book.

52

[quote]StoneOfFire wrote:

how about we talk numbers, ey?

i used rippetoe’s starting strength as my first program
got to 400/300/400

doing my best to understand the rantings of a madman,
i am now at 425/320/470
this is with westside methods.
louie’s free articles and videos on the net,
and tates westside seminar.

so what kinda advancements are you good bros making on 5/3/1?
where were you before?
where are you now?
maybe even
what were you doing before to get to 5/3/1?

i could buy 5/3/1
even if just for an interesting read

but i have yet to buy louie’s book. [/quote]

OP, if its just been a couple of months since you switched from Starting strength, those gains aren’t to bad. It may take a little while to adjust to westside, and as long as you are progressing I see no reason to change. One thing to consider, is that while training with the Westside template one can VERY EASILY overdo it. There are no deloads, and you are training at 90%+ every week. And the volume can get up there with DE work and assistance work. Ive read the westside book of methods and a lot of what Dave Tate has written, and it takes some time to build up your work capacity and conditioning. Sure, we can get away with a lot more than someone that is squatting 1000+, but still, you gotta keep an eye on things that push YOU over the limit. I myself can handle a good amount of intensity and volume, but quickly get overworked if I push one or the other two high. And training to failure usually sends my progress down the crapper.

So basically, when in doubt, cut out the things that you can do without. Many times, less is more. For example, right now, ive cut my assistance down to about 3 exercises, and im pretty much just doing 3 sets on all of it. But there are times when i’ll be building up to 5-6 sets on assistance work. (No time in the near future for me though)

The nice thing about westside, is that you get to train “heavy” every week. For the most part, you should know if your lifts are going up. But, if you get to where you’ve increased your 3-board press by 30 lbs, and then finally test your bench and notice its gone down, then you know you’ve been picking the wrong exercises. It all comes down to monitoring your indicators, and if you indicators are poor at indicating strength in the competition lifts, then get new indicators.

Im sure you’ll figure out what you need to do regardless of which direction you choose. Also, it doesn’t hurt to read 5/3/1 or the westside book of methods. Ive read the methods, and a lot of is available free on their site, and its a bit of a “mish-mash” but still a good read.

EDIT: Alkoholic, I dont have any vidoes, but may get some up soon if I can find a friend with a camera. As for me applying what I suggest, well ya. Im not going to tell someone to do something that I haven’t done myself or that I wouldn’t do myself People give me crap because of some of my older posts that were a bit “trollish” but I dont really care. Im just having fun lifting weights and getting stronger. And if you read any of the westside stuff, its all about lifting weights and getting strong. Everyone is a student, and everyone is a teacher. There is always something new to learn, nobody is a master at anything. Louie and most of the guys over at Elitefts also dont support this crap where you try to put someone in their place, or talk crap to them on the forums. Seroiusly if someone thinks bad advice is given, then call the person on it. Im getting tired of all of this, and im either gonna find another better forum or just creat a new name. But ya, if I get access to a camera sometime soon, i’ll throw up some videos of a training session for people to see.

53

[quote]dankid wrote:
EDIT: Alkoholic, I dont have any vidoes, but may get some up soon if I can find a friend with a camera. As for me applying what I suggest, well ya. Im not going to tell someone to do something that I haven’t done myself or that I wouldn’t do myself[/quote]

Doesn’t mean what you are doing isn’t wrong. Now you could be doing everything right… however… If I jump off a bridge, would you?

Tho I agree, you will also find that Jim and the other people at Elitefts wouldn’t try to write Articles on Quantum Physics if they didn’t have all they could to write on it. Just because they have the book doesn’t make them qualified to teach it. My point is you give advice on what you are doing, obviously we are humans want proof of what you are speaking of is making gains and makes sense in training.

My problem came when you try to get even with people and say that “programs” are for morons and take no sense to do them. Jim wrote a program and is following that program, Dave has written programs. You criticize people for doing them, however when someone criticizes you on it, all the sudden it becomes, “They are trying to put me in my place” and you become a victim. Did you really expect different?

54

So here’s the thing, I’ve done both Westside, and 5-3-1, and let’s break them down into pro’s and cons.

Westside:
pro’s: learn to strain with ME work, develop fast Rate of Force Development, become more explosive, highly adaptable to multiple sports outside of powerlifting, variety is endless

con’s: can be complicated, many don’t understand the basics and think that by reading a couple of articles you get the idea. Workouts are not laid out free for all on the net like Sheiko, so some homework must be done. Can beat you up too if overdone or you don’t take care of yourself.

5-3-1:
pro’s: learn to push through a rep max and find that extra ounce of effort needed, simple and easy to follow, workouts are fast, percentage loading scheme allows for consistant gradual progress over a long period of time.

con’s: boring as hell. variety is the spice of life imo. Change also helps prevent pattern overload, but you could switch the core lifts every few months/year, whatever you feel like as long as you allow enough progress to accumulate.

I don’t really buy that westside (concurrent/complex-parallel) periodization doesn’t produce results for raw lifters. Matt Wenning can bench 600 raw, he’s done at least 585 smoothly in a UGSS video for elitefts. He’s written many articles that discuss that you must work on YOUR weaknesses, train raw often, and keep pushing yourself hard. Either way is good imo, pick your poison, but don’t throw something out w/out first figuring why you’re losing ground.

God Bless.

55

[quote]StoneOfFire wrote:

been trying westside for months.
squat is down 20 lbs
bench is down 10 lbs
deadlift is up 5 lbs

planned on buying safety bar, cambered bar
already got chains, bands on the way

and now ive been reading i can up my raw lifts better
if i ditch all the fancy shit and do 5/3/1?

what is this?

ive seen alot of free westside shit
how can it not be the best?

how can less specific equipment and
what i think are less lifts
amount to more results?

im thinking its because westside is so fucking hard without louie there
trying to figure shit out on my own isnt easy.

strange there’s no sigs here,
but my lifts are 425/315/470
[/quote]

did you buy the book westside book of methods? or did you just Google the classic 4-day split, because without reading the book, the westside template wont be as effective.

56

I spent about six months on a WSB style workout ( Mainly for Bench ) and made some good progress. The mistakes I made was not rotating my speed work, Not Performing enough deload sessions ( High Rep DB work ), initially choosing some exercises that were not transferable to a Raw bencher, and performing too many sets of low rep tricep work ( Should of rotated more 8 -10 rep work, rather than 3 -5). I tried the 5/3/1 program and found the workout exhilarating, but really did not gain much strenght ( Really needs to be followed for 4 or 5 cycles…I got bored ) other than MP, which I needed to work on anyways. I , like a few have mentioned on this forum, also burned out the ME work week in and week out. Here is an article by Dave Tate, rotates a 5/3/1 rep sequence rather than the 1 ME every week. It is obviously not Jim’s 5/3/1, but takes some of that periodization philisophy into account. I have not tried this program, but I have used some similar rotations of rep schemes in the past. I love the floor press, great for triceps no matter what the rep scheme is.

BR

Frank

57

From an athletic performance standpoint would the westside barbell methods be superior to 5/3/1 for creating explosiveness and speed?

58

[quote]jeezy91 wrote:
From an athletic performance standpoint would the westside barbell methods be superior to 5/3/1 for creating explosiveness and speed?[/quote]

Neither one is really focused on that. You’d be better off using a program focused on speed.

59

Conjugate Training is an excellent system to use, but unfortunately it requires a lot of knowledge and experience to make it work properly. You kneed to know where you are weak, and exactly what exercises you will need to do to combat this. I think the best thing about 5/3/1 is the lack of options. Most people (myself included) will go completely nuts with 500 different accessory movements to chose from, and end up spinning their wheels for months on end.

60

I recently purchased the westside barbell book of methods and have to say that it definitely cleared up any issues I was having with the program. I have had good success using defrancos wsfsb template, however recently I was burning out after a few weeks of training because I simply was not rotating my ME exercise frequently enough.

I also believe incorporating dynamic days for squat/deadlift and bench (using chains/bands especially) would greatly improve speed-strength. This combination of max effort strength and speed strength is what produces improvements in athletic performance.

I think it goes without saying if you are having problems with any program the least you can do is purchase the book. I have both the 5/3/1 ebook and the wsb book of methods- each completely worth buying.

As far as accessory exercises go, I think if you keep it simple and rotate out exercises once progress stalls you can get alot of them.