T Nation

Disregarding Democracy

Once again another astute contribution from Ivan Eland.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Once again another astute contribution from Ivan Eland.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1847[/quote]

“The creation of empire destroyed the Roman Republic slowly from within. As its foreign conquests militarized Roman policy, power passed from the peoples? assembly to the Senate to the dictator to the emperor. In the United States, ?home of the free and the brave,? we somehow believe a similar usurpation of the republic could never occur. Yet it is already underway.”

Does this guy actually believe this shit or is this just the best he come up with to close his piece?

So the U.S. is building an empire? Yeah. Our country has demonstrated through the years that “empire building” through military force is it’s main goal. If that were case, wouldn’t most of the world belong to us? Europe, certainly. Kuwait, to be sure.

This is just incoherent ruminations by an another Anti-Bush demogouge hoping to convince you to vote Democrat.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Once again another astute contribution from Ivan Eland.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1847[/quote]

I don’t know what word you’re thinking of, but when Hack Wilson crams the argument down your throat, astute is not it.

The point isn’t that the US is empire building. The point is that as we progress towards a more militaristic policy do to fear (terrorism by definition) created by islamist extrtemists and the current administration alike, we are giving more and more power toward the government.

The patriot act and the new torture bill are prime examples of this.

The US isn’t nessicarily “empire building”, but the fear is having a similar effect, causing to give up basic liberties (like Habeus Corpus) because we are afraid.

If the US is so darn powerful, why are we so afraid of the terrorists that we have to give up civil libverties. Should we not snuff our freedoms in their faces by keeping all of our basic liberties and still shutting them down?

[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
So the U.S. is building an empire? Yeah. Our country has demonstrated through the years that “empire building” through military force is it’s main goal. If that were case, wouldn’t most of the world belong to us? Europe, certainly. Kuwait, to be sure. [/quote]

The article is actually about the government ignoring the will of the people. It also condemns the concentration of power in the hands of the President.

I disagree with the author when he contends that the government should listen to the people’s opinion on a day to day basis; you can’t lead a country by polling, nothing would ever get done.

I do agree with him that the various amendments and rules that slowly erode your freedoms are troubling. Not necessarily for their immediate results as much as for the lowering of the bar and the setting of precedents.

But forget all that, let’s pretend it’s about the US being an evil empire and let’s bash some Dems! Go Hack, go!

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
If the US is so darn powerful, why are we so afraid of the terrorists that we have to give up civil libverties. Should we not snuff our freedoms in their faces by keeping all of our basic liberties and still shutting them down?[/quote]

It’s like this: Since they hate our freedom, we get rid of all that freedom. Once freedom-free, they won’t hate us anymore.

Makes sense?

[quote]pookie wrote:

I do agree with him that the various amendments and rules that slowly erode your freedoms are troubling. Not necessarily for their immediate results as much as for the lowering of the bar and the setting of precedents.[/quote]

Do you agree with his analogy to the rise/fall of the Roman Empire? Do you think you will in two, four, or six years?

Maybe it’s just that my level of tolerance has gone up, but he was pretty squaredly bashing the author.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
Do you agree with his analogy to the rise/fall of the Roman Empire? Do you think you will in two, four, or six years?[/quote]

Well there are similarities between American society now and the Roman Empire during it’s decline.

As for “the fall,” I’m not really sure how that would happen. I don’t think you’ll be overrun by barbarian hordes. It’s not something that’s going to happen suddenly in a few years either.

It would probably take the form of becoming a bit less dominant on the world stage; either because China increases it’s power and influence, or Europe does, or whatever.

I’d think it’d be more of a leveling of the playfield between powerful nations, rather than a fall such as the Roman empire.

Well yes, but by caricaturing him as the typical liberal Bush hater.

[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
Once again another astute contribution from Ivan Eland.

“The creation of empire destroyed the Roman Republic slowly from within. As its foreign conquests militarized Roman policy, power passed from the peoples? assembly to the Senate to the dictator to the emperor. In the United States, ?home of the free and the brave,? we somehow believe a similar usurpation of the republic could never occur. Yet it is already underway.”

Does this guy actually believe this shit or is this just the best he come up with to close his piece?

So the U.S. is building an empire? Yeah. Our country has demonstrated through the years that “empire building” through military force is it’s main goal. If that were case, wouldn’t most of the world belong to us? Europe, certainly. Kuwait, to be sure.

This is just incoherent ruminations by an another Anti-Bush demogouge hoping to convince you to vote Democrat.
[/quote]

Too bad you’re to deluded to see past your own pathetic ethos. The man is a liberatrian so I wouldn’t exactly call him a democrat - would you? Or is any person who disagree with this administrations foreign policy a democrat? If you took the time to actually reference the article you’d see that the Independent Institiute is essentially a libertarian think tank. But your slavish love to anything that is republican shines through and through.

This country has more puppets around the world than you know. However, your sense of nationalistic jingoism prevents you from seeing so. What a shame.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
The point isn’t that the US is empire building. The point is that as we progress towards a more militaristic policy do to fear (terrorism by definition) created by islamist extrtemists and the current administration alike, we are giving more and more power toward the government.

The patriot act and the new torture bill are prime examples of this.

The US isn’t nessicarily “empire building”, but the fear is having a similar effect, causing to give up basic liberties (like Habeus Corpus) because we are afraid.

If the US is so darn powerful, why are we so afraid of the terrorists that we have to give up civil libverties. Should we not snuff our freedoms in their faces by keeping all of our basic liberties and still shutting them down?[/quote]

It’s not that we are afraid so we have to give up liberties. The goveenment pursues policies which escalate the level of terror and then take our liberties which gives them more power over us. A win-win for the government. Eventually it will end as we go the way of all empires unless something drastic is done.