T Nation

Dislocated Shoulder and Steroids


#1

alright then, here goes nothing... I am 33 years old, I've been training for 15 years, I have experienced gains with the likes of Deca,, Sustanon, equipoise, winstrol, masteron, test prop. As for PCTs clomid, nolva and anastrozole for a.i. No not all of those at once, just over the years.

Long story short, I was in a motorcycle accident in August. I separated my right shoulder slash snapped three tendons and dislocated my left shoulder.I am well aware of the impact that this has happened on my life as well as training ability or lack thereof but, always a but, I refuse to just accept this and live the rest of my life not enjoying it. This is not where the quesrion lies.

There will be gear involved to get my muscle density back up. Im sure a few people will say accept it and move on or bypass gear. Thank you in advance for looking out. The conundrum with that is: I will not have the means to build enough tissue to support my joints etc in the shape they are in nor will I be able to ever lift enough to change that naturally.

Again, muscle density and strength is my goal. I will go slow and focus on form, its not a race, I know. I will not be a bodybuilder in this life anymore, I admit that at this point. I am a blackbelt in kung fu and boxed for years muay thai and trained mma as well. I only say this so those of you with similar interests might appreciate and chime in if that were taken from you when you woke up one day.

Im not built to lose. I would rather deal with dense muscle and the ability to lift my arms using muscle more so then relying on my joints to do it for the rest of life and the debilitating emotional state that is caused from shoulders being in poor shape. I am aware tendons and ligaments grow and support weight and certain compounds play into or against that. I am working with what I am working with physically and am very aware Im not what I was before rje accident.

I have read many forums now as to shoulder dislocation and recovery, steroid use for recovery, cortisol, et cetera. I am NOT asking if this is a good idea, I am well aware that people have their opinions as to how to move forward but I would be curious to hear those same peoples opinions that have been training for 10 to 15 years as a lifestyle that then or in the state that I'm in. If I needed advice, whete were people when I was on the bike? Haha anywaysWithout experiencing this, you could not understand what it is like to be in this position so please keep your opinions to yourself what I'm looking for is facts.

I am NOT asking if I should proceed with steroids until AFTER my recovery. I am NOT reliant on steroids presently and never have been in my life, that is not the issue. My personal issue right now is that I believe that if I build up the muscle density around the joints that it will alleviate the effort significantly of raising my arms or lifting or making sudden movements unexpectedly.

I am NOT saying that sudden movements take my shoulder out of place by any means, I just had my second dislocation and it was from: trying to protect my girl at a concert full of idiots. If you don't like concerts, fine I don't care, that's how it happened, we're HERE now. I learned my lesson, I won't do it again so please in response don't isolate the fact I was in a concert, lesson learned. I didn't want to be there in the first place.

I had started taking a test prop and Masteron cycle 8 days before the Redis location. I have my Nolva and my anastrazole. the question I guess is, do I continue taking this as to keep my levels good and hopefully healrecovery of tissue? I did see a doc. No surgery and is as good as nature plans now.

it is my understanding that Decca does not lubricate a joint, which is fine, that it is an anti-inflammatory rather the estrogen from aromatase acts as such as does it help fuse bone plates etc. from the sounds of it equipoise has agency that will help rebuild skeletal muscle tissue as well so I am leaning towards that also post recovery. I suppose this is a two part question: since I started this cycle, should I see it through and administer a.I.s and PCT's accordingly?

I am still doing legs and abs and anything else I can. Or just start with the PCT's now? Part 2 of the question is does anybody have any good advice as far as HGH equipoise and/or Decca helping this situation? I understand what they both do which is why Ive isolated the two (well, in addition to base test prop eod). again, not trying to bodybuild just trying to get mass to hopefully maintain and alleviate joint overuse or strains to keep functioning because that is more important to me than living a life of bleakness. At this point, my life is going to be very uncomfortable anyways, mentally and physically in this state.

I know what I feel and I KNOW strengthening those muscles (post, ant delt, rhomboids even traps) will benefit my overall well being. With my body as it is I wont be able to get there due to nature taking course. I am a quality not quantity kind of guy and realized flying off that motorcyle in August that I COULD go at any second. That being said, Im trying to make the most of it so lets fees the wolves and hear some advice?

Please refrain from opinions, lets talk pysical facts and results if you have not experienced this. These compounds dont need to be taken only if you plan on being enormous ok? I know a thing or two and am just in a unique position. Please use your brains and help rather than discredit my efforts.

To you, Im a screen name, but its my livelihood and happiness. I apologize for putting parameters on what to respond with but I have read about 50 forums now and understand pros and cons to begin with. I am asking not if I should but if anyone has any good advice to help my cause? I would like back (safely) in the gym ASAP and am aware of the effects of these compounds in my body which is why I am CHOOSING this route at this juncture in MY life.


#2

if you are 33 years old i would start blasting and cruising…

you don’t need a reason or an excuse to do steroids… shit i would do them even if i didn’t lift.

for you though, i would run low test (i have read that keeping test at trt levels is good for collagen whereas higher is bad…)

deca and EQ

something like this

weeks 1-?
test E 200mg/week
deca 600mg/week
EQ 600mg/week
hgh 4iu/forever (keep an eye on your blood sugar)

use an AI if you need it… shouldn’t need too much

pct? you’re 33 years old, it’s up to you whether you want to come off or not.

next time spare us the essay if you want help


#3

Dude that was a novel… For what its worh… I’ve had shoulder surgery 2x… I am recovering from a type 2 slap tear… Its been horible after getting nowhere with rehab 12weeks after surgery my doc wanted to do a manipulation to break up the frozen shoulder. That procedure is like a surgery so it aint cheap. I asked the doc for 6 more weeks of rehab.

I started low dose HGH around 3iu a day the next week. Within the first 2 weeks I was noticing much faster progress in PT also less pain. Less morning stiffness in the joint. After 4 weeks I was 95% ROM from 65% The doc cleared me no more PT & I didnt have to do the manipulation. Let me also add I was doing my rehab program 3x per day and eating good.

Since day 1 out of sling.
After having not lifted UB for almost 1 yr Im see’ing size comeback but strength is slower. Im not sure what deca, & all that other stuff will do for healing becuase I have no expierence with them. I was also running 200mg test but I’ve been on TRT for awhile and thats my weekly pop. I feel as if the HGH has probably shaved off 3 months of recovery.

Doc said I wouldnt be lifting heavy till Nov but I feel like July-Aug I could do it. I got on HGH for recovery but I really like it so I will probably just keep it for life with the test


#4

thank you so much you guys. And yeah that’s pretty much the regiment that I was thinking. I have never taking HGH do you have any advice on how to proceed forward with that as far as administration? I do apologize for the novel, it was my first post ever on a forum and I’m sure you guys picked up on my frustration. I have been doing research for months and have seen a lot of people interjecting your opinions as to whether or not to even use gear post recovery and focusing more on that and never getting to the point of the questions that people were asking.

I’m 33 now but at 20 I wasn’t as intelligent as far as PCT and I believe I threw my levels out of whack so I’m still very cautious. And having started taking this Mast and test and then stopping I figured I would get rid of free e via Nolva and start treatment discussed upon heal ASAP. I was on winnie in accident and really dont think the tendon brittleness had to do with injuru. I hit the ground going 40mph and just these injuries are what came of it. I think the right suffered seperation by going over and off the handlebars and not letting soon enough.

T-boned a deer on a Ninja. In good pysical state I had been just getting back into gear so got a half of cycle then and then this dislocate and right affter startin the test/mast with decca added starting today then incorporating eq. Last novel, I swear. I really really appreciate your guys’ help. Side question: can one overdo a.I.s and pct? Id like to take this time to get as much e out before goin again.


#5

man it sounds like you went through the ringer too. Glad you got your gains coming back my dude. I’m sure it was hard. Thank you again .Bout that hgh, take it for life? Not arguing, can you please state the benefits of that for life? Is that how you feel too Hebrewhero having gone through the like?


#6

As far as how to take it you can pin it IM or SQ even IV if you are brave. Most places Ive read say SQ also my doc says do it SQ and that IM is a waste but lots of dudes say otherwise. I pin it both ways. SQ 2iu in the gut and later 1-2 iu in the injured shoulder.

As far as benifits go & why 4 life. 1) Feel great very relaxed 2) energy 3) skin looks and feels good 4) anti aging 5) stay lean
Plus it helps with recovery so my thoughts are by keeping T good and HGH at good levels I can mimic my 20’s … I may be wrongg but I dont think you need PCT or anything for sides on HGH alone especially if you are at a low to moderate level which should be all you need for recovery. High doses of HGH cause some unpleasent effects so start small and work up if you want. Personally I dont see why anyone would run HGH high its expensive and their is other cheaper gear to get you “big” IMO save that other shit for when you are ready to train why waste $$. Have you had surgery to repair these issues? Did you do PT? What did the doc say about your health ie can you lift in the future?

I’ve had 2 shoulder surgries so I know how they suck. You need ROM before you start lifting. stretch in mornings and before bed. also before any pt


#7

that was a lot of good information thanks man. No, no surgery was involved. Yes, I am in good health I’m 6’1 210lbs 15 percent body fat presently. I did do physical therapy, haha at this point it all seems like physical therapy. Hope you know what I mean. yes, I can still lift I just need to be careful. No fast jerking motions or obscenely heavy weights.

I do feel that muscle mass and strength can and will help keep this in place as well as allow me to function better in life.and the benefits of HGH you just mentioned definitely sound appealing. So you have had two surgeries and still can bulk up and build and I would imagine you feel good about your decision to do so and how?


#8

Hgh. A needle a day in the stomach for life? Or until desired results? Never considered hghdue to certain side effects I heard years ago but from the sounds of it things might have mellowed out a bit or been contained a little better. It was my understanding that one doesn’t lose the gains made from HgH? Fact? Fiction? I also heard it could grow your skeletal structure et cetera so with these injuries were expanding my skeletal structure possibly hurt my condition in the future?


#9
  1. Yes I feel good about my decission to bulk/build Im 175 now at 15-16% BF but would like to be 185-200lb at 10% BF I will continue on that path 2) Probably a needle or 2 per day for life I can aford it and I like it 3) Not sure about loosing gains but HGH really isnt for bulking its a recovery aid IMO It takes really high doses to bulk and this shit aint cheap. Im sure it helps with getting big but its nothing like running high doses of T…Not sure about skelatel I think thats BS

If you can lift pain free and have full range of motion then whats the issue? Work with wheights that work for you where you can make progress. Theres tons of great programs out there. Im just starting out after months so Im doing body weight stuff mostley and light weights working on form and reps. My tendons / joint arent ready yet for heavy weights


#10

Based on what Bushido Bad Boy posted years ago, I have been doing my GH IM EOD for nearly 3 years. At first I did it SubQ as the doc prescribed, but there were some long threads on here where respected long time contributors were all about using it IM only or IV … I have spoken to enough people who SubQ it and see results I am sure that works too, as for effectiveness IM vs SubQ we probably never will know because they will not do research on it.

I’ve had tons of sports injuries over the years. Even though I am late 30s, and beat down and broken, I feel that I have recovered from some injuries decently in the past few years because of being on HRT (200mg week Test, 21iu week GH- might be more now I changed to Norditropin pins and doc said he bumped the dose up but it has clicks I just know how much I can pin and get through the month). Recovery from injuries also can be sped up by improving the quality of your sleep, increasing protein intake (I hit whey shakes 3-4 times a day and a few handfuls of BCAAs a few times a day), 15g glutamine in post workout whey shakes, increasing anti-oxidants (I even do IV vitamin C in massive doses), tissue work on or around the injured areas (foam rolling, massage, ART, etc), and imagery and deep breathing.

I do not feel like Ive had any negative side effects at all from shooting GH 3.5 years or so. And I’ve read some internet letter quoting “research” which never has been verified, about the various steroids that increase collagen synthesis and healing rates (var, primo, deca, EQ and to avoid Winny etc). If that stuff is true, makes it very tempting to want to blast some Deca/NPP or Primo/Var in addition to HRT a few times a year just to keep everything on the up and up :slight_smile:


#11

Good info blue collar… I think you are right on with the IM vs SQ thing docs will probably always say Sq becuase its less intrusive however I disagree. SQ can sometimes leave bruises where as IM with insulin pins is always comfortable with no marks… I’ve heard it said that IM dispurses the HGH slow where SQ is a faster delivery and mimics the natural burst not sure if thats true but a nurse told me that while mixing a batch 1 day…

Anyhow of the 7 guys I know all over 30 they use HGH pretty much SQ always and either do EOD or ED… I think the world may never relly now which is best or if it even matters. I do think however unlike dosing test HGH may need some variety to throw your system some curve balls, if doing it ED your body gets used to it so changing from ED to E3D gives you a pulsing effect however those high doses can give you sides… I do think the protien uptake is fantastic on HGH it just feels good 3-4 shakes a day is right on…

I run pretty much run the same program 3-4iu per day or 7iu E3D, then T cyp 200mg weekly I like mixing 1ml Test with 1ML B12 for energy… What do you mean by clicks & what are norditropin pins? Do you just mean you changed to pinning norditropin from a different brand ? Have you ever tried IV? No one I know has ever went down that road…


#12

Man I wish I had time to do some searches, bushido bad boy had some seriously long threads where he and others went hard core trying different protocols of GH, IV, IM, ED, EOD, every 3rd day, and they explained why they thought IM and IV were superior, pulsing bursts like our bodies naturally do…so less chance of shut down, and I think but do not quote me, that IM makes it peak fast and is more useful than the slower SubQ release and some of them even said in those threads they thought SubQ was “wasting it”…BUT there are tons of dudes on SubQ, including those ungodly yoked 60-70 year old doctors on commercials and Ive seen on TV haha, so the stuff must work SubQ too that is the way they do it. I do not believe those old farts are doing real HRT, because if you are 50, 60, 70 and stronger, more ripped, and more horny than you were when you were young than you are far above your normal hormone output!

I dont care if I cycled, and I have good genetics, I am never going to be as strong, explosive, and horny as I was in teens and early 20s playing college ball and powerlifting! My body could not handle those loads Id detach and tear all kinds of stuff, but I am high mileage. I have been drag racing, mud bogging, and crash up derby my body for decades. But yea if you have time search GH pulsing, GH IV, BBB (bushidobadboy) on here. That dude was wicked ass smart, I wonder if he is still around. I have not been on here much due to work and other life challenges, but this always has been a trusted source of passionate guys.

So yea I think what the nurse told you is reverse what I have read on here, IM is for fast strong pulse like the body might do naturally, and SubQ is slower release so might inhibit the bodies natural output. So that is what I have been hoping, that by going M/W/F IM, that I am still keeping some of my natural GH and not shutting it down totally. I also train in a manner I hope I pulse GH, heavy on the compound ground based movments, and end workouts with 10-15 minutes of short high intensity intervals with short rests. I also supplement lots of the GH support amino blends before bed, and take Xyrem (GHB) from my doc to help promote deeper sleep and supposedly more GH. Deeper sleep should increase hormones regardless, I never took sleep seriously until my 30s…but guys trust me, research and experience tells otherwise, deeper stages of sleep are CRITICAL for our hormones and for our cognitive function.

I have thought of coming off GH for a while just to see how I feel, but then I am like what the hell I know its doing good stuff for me why get off, I will only get off if I have to. The Test on the other hand, I wish I could do a restart and not pin the rest of my life if I could get my levles back up to normal, but because of health issues, and then 3.5 years on HRT, I am sure I am shut down hard if not for good now.

Yes my pharmacy changed me from Omnitrope to Norditropin. It comes in a “pen” which has a knob you turn and “clicks” as you turn it, then you push a button and inject it. It is not dosed in ius and I used to have it figured out how many ius a week I was on, but now I have no clue

I am not gonna do IV…not into that, but I am sure sometimes I end up shooting in a vein when blood squirts out my quad so maybe I am psuedo IV sometimes :slight_smile:

One thing I have not had the time to read up on, is some fellas on here speak about concerns about causing diabetic issues using GH…which I need to read up on…if that is the case I need to take every precaution, and even consider getting off it from time to time if that helps reduce chances. So much to learn and read…and doctors say different things, different HRT clinic or doctors websites say different stuff, depending on the forum you visit guys swear by different methods, doses, protocols, etc. I am not sure which doctors are tuned into what really works, I would imagine if a doc was open to reading up on the bodybuilding scene, intervewing guys who have been doing it for years, and doing labs with guys trying different protocols over a long period of time, we might get some more concrete answers!

I cannot promote it enough though, for any age with soft tissue injuries or recovering from surgeries, hit the protein and BCAAs hard, fish oil in high doses (for many reasons including anti inflammatory), I am a firm believer in high dose vitamin C (its cheap why not, I do 6g day orally and when I have time get 30-50g in an IV). Get quality sleep, which if you struggle with sleep, google progressive relaxation, maybe read up on some basic mindfulness, Dr. Herbert Bensons Relaxation Response, do some positive imagery seeing the bodypart or injury healing and see yourself back to lifting and performing as you would like, and if you can afford it try deep tissue massage, Active Release Technique, foam roll around the injury (and you can use LAX balls, golf balls, etc to dig in around the site) . Also stretching, if you can find a good PT or sports ortho chiro who knows how to do functional movement screens/evals, they can help stretch muscles in ways that help release tension on injured ones, do tissue work, and stuff really helps. I also think stuff like dry needling and accupuncture could help, anything to get blood flowing. And also any sort of stim, compex units, game ready treatment system, vibration platforms, Normatech, etc…so many new ways to work on recovery…if you have a high speed sports medicine office near you they might have some or many of these things to try out.

And forgiven1…I feel for ya bro. I will not write a book about my life and injuries, but I have been training 25 years now, its as much a part of my life as brushing my teeth and putting deodorant on. I have been through hell and back a few times in my life with injuries and health issues that stopped or threatened my training, if you need a ear to bend shoot me a PM and I will give you my number.


#13

Check out any thread with BushidoBadBoy and GH…they have all kinds of info…this guy is interesting as heck

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/bushidobadboy#myForums/thread/2251610/


#14

Try a google search for bushido bad boy. :wink:


#15

Ha…you just reminded me, he is also super experienced in nootropics hah…Ive used some of his info to go to my doc to play around with those nutrients…Im currently doing playing with aniracetam, dl-phenylalanine, phosphatidyserine, phosphatidylchonine, and tmg…

Yea if I had the cash I would consult with that guy on a number of things


#16

Blue Collar…I read all those links plus I’ve read many of BBB’s things in the past… Its all good stuff but its pretty unclear as to how much HGH for healing, fat loss, or anti aging… It seems like the protocal was basically this… take your bottle and divide in into 3 even doses, then break that day into 3 doses …dose AM, pre work out, then post work out that If Im wrong here correct me but as I understand it a basic 25iu vial would go down like this

25/3 = 8iu E3D on that day you dose 2IU AM 2iu pre WO then 4 iu post WO The prefferd method was IV but IM was next as a preference

Is that how you read it too?

Also seems like it was developed for mass building if body building… Which is great but I think the poster was more interested in using HGH to heal not necissarily get big although its very possible the protocal is all out for healing, fat loss, & BB Who knows but if it maximises the HGH just a litlle thats great as its not cheap :wink:


#17

its been a long time since I read all of them…just due to the fact I am not going to be home all the time to get to the fridge to grab GH and pin myself, and I already pin so much I am not in mood to IM pin my quads 3x day for GH


#18

Damn thats nice 5’10 at 250 7% Im 5’10 and happy with 180 at 10% I here you on the GH I pin test & HCG too so pinning all the time is a drag. I think alot of it is just bro science. I mix it up with the HGH most days I do 3-4 iu/ 20-25 units in the AM fasted then do cardio. Some days I skip and bang it IM after a heavy leg WO sometimes I dont do shit and pin it before bed becuase the dreams are kick ass. Its probably very possible that HGH doesnt have a clear cut best way and that the only real way to get more benifit is simply just more HGH.

I started my HGH to heal a bad shoulder injury I think its workingg but I’ve kind of platued… I had a type 2 slap tear with bicep tendon re-atahment real narly recovery. 1month in a imobilizer 1 month in a sling and 3 months of PT 3x per week. I started my HGH after 2 months of getting nowhere in PT and it made a great difference.

My problem now is my front delt is still all balled up always tense and protecting the joint. I’ve tried Ice, heat, electric shock, foam rolling everything I can to break it down but its still hard as a rock 24\7 Doc says keep doing my PT and if I need more pills or another cortizone shot just call. TBH Im tired of all drugs and pain I would just like to have a pain free day. Also Im still having a ton of popping and cracking. Doc says after slap tear repair they over tigthten everything so I may have that for awhile. Im considering deep tisue masage but its $70 per hr

For that same cash I could get another vial. My doc allots me 50iu per month when I pick it up its just freeze dried powder in a vial I mix it with 2ML bac water and its good for 2 weeks. The doc always talks in units & MLs but guys on here talk in iu’s but he has me draw up to the 20 or 25 on a 100 unit insulin pin I generally get 10-11 shots out of the bottle. My bottles all say 25iu Nippertropin 191 on them. 20-25 units is the same thing as 3-4iu right?

Being you have had many injuries you think it would be wise to back stock my vials then double down a month later or just stick with current dose? It would be easy to do becuase I mix it myself. Keep in mind Im in this for healing all the other HGH benifits are not my concern. Sorry for hijacking :frowning:


#19

My advice on that bicep issue and tightening of shoulder it seems, is ART and deep tissue. HGH can help heal but you need to release that tension and who knows if you also have some scar tissue that needs broken up. Tissue work is HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE…I get tissue work 2-3 times a week in addition to foam rolling, LAX rolling, tons of stretching during each workout. The pro guys we train with or coach man if they are under are care its multiple deep tissue sessions a week for injury areas in addition to one or two full body massages.

I have detached a bicep too, distal head I think it was (near elbow), yikes pain in ass surgery yea and long recovery. I was not on HRT at the time but had me scared so it has healed up nicely. I used to worry about detaching it again or tearing it. But when it does flair up, and it does, try to dig in it myself with whatever I can.

I love HRT for medical issues…but injuries and age man, cannot be overcome by extra hormones. We need to do tissue work, stretching, mobility work, and make sure our core and joints are strengthened which just takes the extra time to pay attention to details and work on that stuff. Its a pain in ass but it works!

I vote for deep tissue if you can find a way to afford it.


#20

Im going to look into ART I think you are right HGH is really just a tool in the box when it comes to recovery… But it is a helpful tool to us guys over 30… Also Im going to check into doing 30min of Yoga every day and see how that works. Now that Im 35 I should probably devote as much time to mobility and flexiblilty as I do getting “big”… I think 60-90 days of good PT & I’ll be set Im pretty much 90% at this point. Even on Test & HGH I think it will be the better part of 1 year to regain strengh. Im ok with that prior to my injury I ws benching 300 and OHP 200 which isnt bad dead & squat both 450 o hopefully I can get close to those numbers in a year or so. After that I would probably just maintain and try to stay fit for the MILFS and the pool :wink: