T Nation

DIM and Estrone Discussion and Doctor Recommendation?


#1

hi all,

Sorry if my writing is disorganised and not making alot of sense it took me about 8 hours to write this with 30mg adderall xr in my system i have no idea how long its or if anyone will bother to read it, i was jumping back and forth while typing on my iPhone cause the power is out at my apartment and english is my second language so i hoping i make some sense and not lots of typos if anyone could help me edit this post i would be grateful, i will try to edit this later.

Disclaimer: What i wrote below is my understanding of the human body and is not accurate at all and i did not checked for mistake or false information i just typed everything from the top of my head with the help of my new friend addy, you should not do anything i say or recommend without doing your own research and making sure that its correct and not harmfull in anyway.

i cant find enough information about estrone online, it seems to me its one of the most underestimated hormones so i hope we could find more or discover new information about it.

most people say to only worry about estradiol, but my doctor had a good argument about estrone being more powerful type of estrogen even than estradiol (if someone tells me thats estrone only work in female I might be convinced alot easier than telling me estrone is not important as much as estradiol without detailed arguments and as long as he or she provides explanation to why i felt better combining ai +dim well if you did i dont want this decussion to end i want to know even if estrone is weak would it still cause symptoms like it did to me),

i forgot what she said but she mentioned alpha and beta receptors and explained how estrone and estradiol attach to receptors and how high estrone causes symptoms of high estrogen which in my case was 100% correct and true,

now she said before testing the estrone she that there might be a chance that it could have lowered my testosterone so i interpreted that fixing it could increase testosterone naturaly then the next visit she said she didnt mean to say estrone will increase testosterone she meant something completely different i think what she was trying to that estradiol is effected by estrone and estradiol effect hpta something like that or most likely i just been reading to much in to what she is saying and making things up in my head as she says things and trying to picture it in my mind.

(i like to understand human body as in engineering point of view and try to reverse enginer everthing i learn, I truly believe one day we would cure or treat low testosterone and hypothyroidism alot better than what we are using and without using hard and ineffective treatment that only few people got to perfect after couple of years of trial ,error and titration ,so i want to be involved in anyway and to contribute in anyway possible so i really have motivation to pursue different methods new or old disapproved treatment ,cause t4 is still considered the best treatment for hypothyroid not sure which came first but i think i read that t3 older or aproved before t4 and t4 only got approved because $$$$$ but still considered to be better cause it makes them more money and finding cure cost money so i dont want to wait until someone finance a research and probably die before i see any new treatments i want us to try doing our own experiment ,so i will try to find alternatives such as ldn for hashimoto and more treatment maybe one day we come up with hypothesis we could give to a big pharmaceutical for them to try and prove it and having them take credit for it,too optimistic i know.
now about dim i dont think it effects big pharma in anyway possible and i feel we are completely ignoring it just like doctors do if there is something they dont know about they dont try to learn and educate them selfs ,thats what i feel we are doing here just because most people uses estradiol test only and not crash e2 and not test other estrogens and then they say its not working without knowing about the other estrogens level or how its working in there body and because there is not enough researches proves or disprove estrone and dim doesnt mean we cant experiment since most people here willing to self medicate and experiment on them self than to go uneducated doctor and have him experiment on them and cause more problem and not try to revese it and just refer them to different doctor ,
i think dim just regulates total estrogen and remove bad estrogen detox from food ,soil and from our daily modern life like shampoo and deodorant that could cause low t.
its not supposed to work like an ai so i think it when combined with ai it will help alot with the symptoms which is more important than blood work alone atleast to me ).

And here i will talk abit about my doctor cause she is one of the best doctors you could find she is not like every other doctor im sure most of you would want to be her patient if you visited her office once you will probably never want to switch doctor ever again unless you cant afford her if so i really hope insurance companies covers her office visitation cost for you guys, im living temporary in usa untill i gradute and im planning to visit her office once a year untill i die and ship my medication from her office to my country and that is really expensive (flight ticket hotel other expenses) probably more than i can afford so I will probably have no saving and be on debt for most of my life unless i make profit in stock market or start a business lol just to pay for my healthcare and the other thing my meds are not available in my country too especially that we dont have any compounding pharmacies and meds are more expensive in the us than anywhere else in the world and that doesnt make me change my mind to find cheaper alternatives unless i could open the first compounding pharmacies i will probably make lots money… and help other ofcourse…
the first visit is longer than an hour and half maybe to two hours that will go fast by just talking about symptoms and history and explaining everything in detail about anything unknown to you, you will listen even if you know what she is gonna say because there will be new things that you will probably not find online or not with enough details ,she knows few things that no one in here knows ,because some what we know is what learn from others doctors like dr.crisler and dr.wilson only those two was on top of my head, research and experiments on our self by trail and error but doctors can experiment on a larger number of people and share information in some conferences so its useful to look around to find more info,and she is advanced in term of her expertise i dont know what is her speciality but i think its alternative medicine im just guessing havent asked or check there website but one thing for sure they are not endo and she does research for uci so i guess thats tells something about her right?
she works in a medical group that is ahead by 17 years if not more by now and every doctor in there knows as much if not more than @KSman and i dont think he will would say other wise if he met them , cause i felt as if he taught them himself, and im not sure but i think she is the least experienced doctor in that medical group judging by her age only but she doesn’t have any less knowledge than the other doctors who work with her and my doctor agrees with most of what you guys say here and when I explain my opinion she dont get mad or disagree she only correct me if im having trouble explaining correctly cause i make things up based on what i learn but thats it,and she dont mind me self medicating or doing what ever protocol i want because she realizes how much knowledge i have (from what i been reading online so thanks @KSman and other people in this forum and every one online ,i spent more than a year now reading and i feel i can diagonse better than 80% of doctor but still ksman would disagree with everything i say, i dont mind that at all as long he would not hate me cause i still want to learn more and debate stuff with him, im hoping this gonna turn to my first debate i hope he don’t ignore this topic completely after the first post or disprove estrone and kill the decussion and maybe use this for future reference and sticky) and that im completely honest with her so she knows 100% i wont do anything harmful to me or put her at any kind of risk she knew that from the first visit,
i found her in wilson temperature syndrome website which i found because of @KSman (thanks again i wouldve never found her medical group without your help and now im feeling better with just switching to t3).her medical group is recommended to treat thyroid with t3 only through wts website
and there is alot more i could say about them for hours but i have said alot of unnecessary stuff already,if any one in SOCAL or near LAX to be specific need a good doctor or even there other offices in Georgia and Philadelphia and norcal i will send you there information but they dont accept insurance they are worth spending money but luckly my insurance did reimbursement me, so you if live near one of there office or willing to travel you should definitely try them you would wish you did that sooner.

im not sure if am allowed to give there names in here or not i know im not suppose to give ugl sources but not sure about doctors lol ,they have lots of video in youtube explaining couple of conditions they treat and how they plan to treat it, its worth watching even just for education its over an hour each with lots of knowledge and details explaining the endo system as a one unit and how they look at the whole picture.
I haven’t seen anything that we could disagree on they are open minded and seek new ways of treatment and do blood work based on symptoms(what i mean is they wont follow the regular doctors test or just the test relevant to the issue they will dig deep, they will do more than what ksman ask for and they will try to find the source of the problem which I really like about them) i gave her list of all my symptoms and before she ordered more lab work than what i already gave her on the first visit she found out i have add (attention deficit disorder) that went undiagnosed for 21 years and only one before her guessed that i have add he was a friend who was trying to teach me a subject last year but i wasnt convinced and was in denial cause i was always one of the smartest people in the group, she found out based on having inverted rhythm and other symptoms that is really common with*** hypothroidsm and low t *** which was shocking to me as one of the symptoms was brain fog which is written in there questionaire so its not like she doesnt know that its a symptom of low t but she was able to tell by just looking at what she wrote in the notes not by doing computer test for add or by trying to be a psychiatrist and trying to read me and watch my body language or see if i was zoning out or anything it was completely by symptoms that can cause a misdiagnosis easily and she found that i have mild food allergies that i didnt know about you would think by now i would know about any alergies i have but some how that went unnoticed too which could caused autoimmune disease in the first place and found couple of viruses that is common with hypothyroidism that i dont think anyone in here heard the relation between and it didnt end here ,there is more she have a treatment plan to try to fix or treat everything but that might the few year even if it really possible to cure hashimoto and fix the thyroid but for now we are titrating the treatments increasing t3 every 5 days for example.
and now she is trying to reverse low igf-1 before trying to go on hrt by fixing few things like hypothyroid she think this is the mostly cause and that i have insulin resistance so maybe.
you will definitely walk out of the office with a bag of med(i took t3 sustained release titration package i could’ve asked for cypionate hcg anastrozole but didnt atleast yet) and supplement… well they need to make money somehow but nothing completely useless and they didnt try to sell it to me i had an option of buy it online for less but it was in front of me so i paid more and it wouldnt hurt to try what supplement the doctor recommends as long as it does not to replace the treatments.

i had a lab test that showed low estradiol because of anastrozole and high estrone twice the normal amount in male body more than the range of luteal phase in female (i know there is invert relation between them when estradiol decrease estrone increases but i still believe it that there could be a relation between low t and hpta axis in young male and poor response to trt) and i had symptoms of high estrogen with low estradiol lab work. And yes arimidex doesnt decrease estrone only ai i could think of is letro not sure but only because its used to treat gyno that why i think it lowers total estrogen ,dim helped me more with gyno than anastrozole.

so the doctor told me to take dim without stopping taking ai which is 1mg of anastrozole just like @KSman recommended, but she didnt tell me the dosage so i went online and found that 200-300mg is effective dosage and most people took 300mg to see a difference 100mg might not be enough for men but female its whats recommended.
so the first day i took 200mg cause i wasnt sure if It safe to take more than 4 pills at once with the other ingredients in the supplement (i didnt get the doses online to make sure im not overdosing with anything other than dim) then the next day took 6 pills 300mg felt even better and from there i was taking too much i don’t remember the dosage or how long it to crash my estrogen so now im taking 2 pills daily 100mg and 1mg twice a week but i think my e2 is low and the first week before even before i crashed my estrogen i looked dry af i have never seen my self without being bloated i lost so much around my waist but still my weight didnt drop not even my water weight went down not sure where it , does this mean the water is distributing around the body changed ?or something? or did i just made up something completely doesnt exist ?
i looked so dry its unbelievable even better than when i was on keto or when my e2 was crashed(right now i stoped diet and working out and i look better than a whole year of working out and on strict dieting and even before starting trt or having first symptoms of hormonal imbalance).

and there was an improvement in erection the first week (better than cialis could do to me or e2 within range) but now i have low e symptoms so i lost my erection but i still have my morning erection for most of the days and i think my e2 is high or t drops in mid week so now im injecting eod im just guessing based on symptoms untill i get my first titration blood work for this protocol which is gonna be next week and i will change my ai to eod too once i titrate the ai dosages to something i could split three times a week but first i will probably start with lowering testosterone first then anastrozole if e2 low and then decided what to do with dim based on total estrogen and estrone if it was too low,
from my few weeks of experience with dim it works perfectly but i dont think it replaces ai but I believe it works hand in hand with ai to control total estrogen and especially estrone and its really potent i think everyone should use it as a supplement just like every other supplement we are using to work with our medication like iodine for example.
now zinc had no effect on me so there is one supplement i could completely stop using for ever and replace with dim (my night stand is filled with supplement and medications that more than half of them expire before i get to use them more than twice).

and maybe we could use less ai when combining dim with it (as i heard ai have more side effect especially on liver so it might be worth it to try atleast try and see how is everyone response to dim i know it does not work for alot of people but worth trying and trying again with different dosage and titration of ai i dont know any side effect of dim that would make me stop using it or not recommend it just as much as anastrozole atleast just to control hormones imbalance and to detox from xenoestrogen and other ,and not to be used for trt or cycle just as much as i dont believe in nolvadex to prevent gyno cause nolvadex increase lh and testosterone which increases estrogen and does not fix the issue).

the dim i used is dim detox from pure encapsulations .

Im not sure if thats the same one my doctor wanted me to try but the other one had only dim 100mg and the im using have milk thistle, calcium d glucara and more so i bought it cause more always better right?im sure alot of us fall into that or atleast me…

i dont want this topic to die for few reasons first it took me too long to write and to think of what to write to cover everything so i could start brainstorming ideas hopefully and because i know there is alot of things we didnt discuss about estrone and dim in this forum.
And that dim is not recommended enough atleast most people think because some doctor use it instead of ai they think it really bad choice and it doesnt work so they avoid it completely.
so i want every one to participates and write there experiance with estrone dim letro ect, i know i talked alot of useless thing about my self but its only because i want to know more about you guys just as much i talked about my experience, so you can provide us with as must history as you want or link us to your topics and posts if there is anything relevant or we could use to dicuss more and keep this discussion alive as much as possible.

the goal of this topic is it find different treatments options and protocols even if it doesnt effectly work as long we try to find different approaches off label alternative medicine and collect more information we could use in the future it doesnt have to be directly related to estrone it can be anything related to trt only and the next topic one is gonna be related to thyroid and autoimmune disease.

and if anyone have blood work with estrone or total estrogen and if you used dim or letro with it just to collect data to make hypothesis or if you found a research or have an argument please share it here,
I think we should try using dim before recommending trying trt atleast just to do some experiment and to see what more we could find out i have a feeling there is more to it than what most of us knows even if it not as much as i think or how much of a big deal im making of it and it may boost testosterone even if it less that what e2 could do or even if it not enough to make a difference at all.

im just excited to share my experiance with dim and i want everyone to try it atleast once i dont think it will hurt anyone but it could improve your erection dysfunction like it did to me at least for the first week before my estrogen crashed not from ai 100% sure.

im using ldn (low dose naltrexone) right now to treat Hashimoto autoimmune disease but its too soon to judge so this will have separate topic as part 2 discussion no need to discusse this yet i just wanted to open people eye about ldn as a way of treatment before its too late to treat there thyroid gland (i feel just as exited as if i cured cancer lol but its a start hopefully in the right direction).
If you dont know what is Ldn used for , its used to treat cancer, hiv ,lyme and autoimmune disease and more as off label use i think its still new (2007) and not enough research to support it so once i have blood work to support that ldn treat hashimoto i will start the topic to discuss more about hashimoto and maybe goiter.
so far I haven’t seen any topic about ldn the only recommendation for hashimoto is iodine i dont think iodine is enough to reverse the problem and it shouldnt be ignored at all like what most doctors do ,even the private lab im my country extended the normal range to make hashimoto fall on the normal range with tpo test because they dont know how to treat autoimmune disease…
and other thing about my new doctor she tested my iodine twice on the first visit urine was high and blood sample was low side of normal and she told me that there is some viruses that could cause hashimoto and i had two ,one is curable i think and the other one is treatable she gave me other supplement for it but she will switch med if i dont improve with supplement and ldn.


#2

All I will say is this. I’ve posted EXTENSIVELY about why the other primary estrogens (e1 and e3) are extremely important to watch in other threads. Estrone can convert back to estradiol and vice versa which is why blood tests for estrogen don’t work. It’s why we use urine analysis taken four times a day in our practice to watch the metabolism of these other hormones and see how they interact to get a correct picture.


#3

This is very interesting to me , I use DIM and have wondered if the change from e2, to e1/e3 would cause any negative effects. Ive heard those metabolites can cause issues with the prostate. Ive been using DIM for about 10 months and my PSA looks good.


#4

i have read some of your topic and i agree with some and this disagree with some other like the testosterone and estrogen ratio.

when i first started trt i took 200mg of testosterone without ai which got my blood level over 1500 as you know lab corp only read up to 1500 and my e2 was 90 so this means that my ratio is 16,6 t/e2 minimum and it could be higher.
the range is 14-20 for t/e2 so my ratio falls in the normal estrogen or low depends on how high my testosterone real was but i had huge gyno it looked like tits and im glad it got abit smaller after i stopped taking testosterone and started using anastrozole.

now you are using urine test im not sure how its compared to blood test does it show the same result or usually higher that it could justify having higher e2 like in the 70 range as one of your post says.
i could not find any of your posts about e1 and e3.

but i completely agree that libido mood and sometimes ed issue is caused by the neurotransmitters not necessarily by e2 and i dont know how to fix this issue but i think having balanced endo system including e2 over time could fix that may take more than a year with consistent blood work.

so from my experience the ratio is not a perfect was to determine optimal estrogen


#5

If you follow my recommendations re T level and E2 and feel great, then things are fine. If not, perhaps you need to dive deeper into other estrogens.

How you feel on TRT is easily blocked by thyroid/iodine issues that almost all doctors will dismiss as “normal”.

Really need more info about you and labs in list format with ranges.

Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys - need more info about you
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.

KSman is simply a regular member on this site. Nothing more other than highly active.

I can be a bit abrupt in my replies and recommendations. I have a lot of ground to cover as this forum has become much more active in the last two years. I can’t follow threads that go deep over time. You need to respond to all of my points and requests as soon as possible before you fall off of my radar. The worse problems are guys who ignore issues re thyroid, body temperatures, history of iodized salt. Please do not piss people off saying that lab results are normal, we need lab number and ranges.

The value that you get out of this process and forum depends on your effort and performance. The bulk of your learning is reading/studying the suggested stickies.