T Nation

Difference of Opinion

Hey Everyone,

I wanted to get your opinion on my cycle buddyâ??s next cycle. Heâ??s going to be taking three separate compounds and two ancillary compounds which I personally feel is a bit too much. Just seems like too much is going on and Iâ??d like some other opinions. First off, here are his stats:

33 yrs. old
6 ft. tall
190 lbs.
6-7% BF using 9 point parrillo caliper method
This will be his fourth cycle. The only new compound he is trying is the nandrolone decanoate. He has used dbol and testosterone before however, ester on the test this time will be new to him(Heâ??s only used enanthate and propionate before). With that being said, here is his cycle breakdown.

Compounds:
Week 1-4 DBol 30mg ED
Week 1-9 Nandrolone Decanoate 200mg 3 times a week
Week 1-9 Testosterone Decanoate 250mg 3 times a week
Week 10-12 DBol 30mg ED

Ancillaries:
Week 1-11 HCG 250iu 2 times a week
Week 1-12 Aromasin 12.5mg ED

PCT:
Week 13-16 Toremifene taper down from 120mg ED to 40mg
Week 13-16 Aromasin 12.5mg EOD

The thing Iâ??m concerned about is the fact that he is taking orals twice during this cycle with only five weeks of recovery time in the middle. Essentially heâ??s taking 7 weeks of DBol in a 12 week period of time. Once to kick start the cycle and then again at the end of the cycle while the nandrolone and test are exiting his system. Is this safe to do?

My thinking is that there are too many compounds in this scenario. Too much going on so itâ??s hard to isolate the problem if one occurs. Then again I am far more cautious than my buddy and far less experienced.

His thinking is that nandrolone is the only compound that is new to him. So if a new side effect shows up, he can assume it belongs to the nandrolone. He also feels that running the DBol twice during the cycle is fine because his liver should be able to recover during weeks 5-10.

In all honesty I know heâ??s done his research, he researched the hell out of all these compounds months ago. We just seem to have a difference of opinion on things and Iâ??d like to see what some of the veterans have to say about this. Thanks guys!

That is a lot of nandrolone. 300mg/wk would be fine, considering his bodyweight.

He’ll need cabergoline and likely need to increase the AI dosage. There’s no reason to put that much effort into the cycle and skimp on something as important as caber when it comes to prolactin side effects.

Those decanoate esters are going to take a while to peak so it would be best to frontload.

Other than that I think the cycle is ok.

[quote]Tonkaboy wrote:
Hey Everyone,

I wanted to get your opinion on my cycle buddyâ??s next cycle. Heâ??s going to be taking three separate compounds and two ancillary compounds which I personally feel is a bit too much.[/quote]

Not sure where you got that idea, but it is ok - it doesn’t work like that.[quote]

Just seems like too much is going on and Iâ??d like some other opinions. First off, here are his stats:

33 yrs. old
6 ft. tall
190 lbs.
6-7% BF using 9 point parrillo caliper method
This will be his fourth cycle. The only new compound he is trying is the nandrolone decanoate. He has used dbol and testosterone before however, ester on the test this time will be new to him(Heâ??s only used enanthate and propionate before). With that being said, here is his cycle breakdown.[/quote]

Ester change means NOTHING physiologically, just so you know. Plus Test, Deca, Dbol is a classic bulking stack, and IMO if he is moderately well trained already and at 6% he will look fucking great (to him and those that know him) on the stack.[quote]

Compounds:
Week 1-4 DBol 30mg ED
Week 1-9 Nandrolone Decanoate 200mg 3 times a week
Week 1-9 Testosterone Decanoate 250mg 3 times a week
Week 10-12 DBol 30mg ED[/quote]

200-300mg of Deca is fine. 600mg is kinda a max dose as far as i am concerned. The cycle is designed well.[quote]

Ancillaries:
Week 1-11 HCG 250iu 2 times a week
Week 1-12 Aromasin 12.5mg ED[/quote]

The Aromasin may well need to be increased but still…[quote]

PCT:
Week 13-16 Toremifene taper down from 120mg ED to 40mg
Week 13-16 Aromasin 12.5mg EOD

The thing Iâ??m concerned about is the fact that he is taking orals twice during this cycle with only five weeks of recovery time in the middle.[/quote]

You should look into the recorded and proven toxicity caused by alkylated steroid use - his plan is fine. Conservative even IMO.[quote]

Essentially heâ??s taking 7 weeks of DBol in a 12 week period of time. Once to kick start the cycle and then again at the end of the cycle while the nandrolone and test are exiting his system. Is this safe to do? [/quote]

You can answet that yourself cant you? 7 weeks? 6 weeks is as common as fuck - and there are many many users who use 100mg a day over 2 months (and this is also unlikely to cause issue in all but those with dodgy livers already).[quote]

My thinking is that there are too many compounds in this scenario. Too much going on so itâ??s hard to isolate the problem if one occurs. Then again I am far more cautious than my buddy and far less experienced.[/quote]

You hit the nail on the head - you are very un-experienced having only run a sibgle T only cycle i am not surprised you feel like this… he is lucky to have a friend who so clearly cares so much, but 1) he will be fine 2) the cycle is a classic 3) three steroids is not extreme by the mildest of standards and 4) if he does have issues - then he should have the experience to deal with them, no?

In short, it is cool you look out for mates but don’t mother them![quote]

His thinking is that nandrolone is the only compound that is new to him. So if a new side effect shows up, he can assume it belongs to the nandrolone. He also feels that running the DBol twice during the cycle is fine because his liver should be able to recover during weeks 5-10.[/quote]

Yes, it is what i think too.[quote]

In all honesty I know heâ??s done his research, he researched the hell out of all these compounds months ago. We just seem to have a difference of opinion on things and Iâ??d like to see what some of the veterans have to say about this. Thanks guys!
[/quote]

It is a good cycle, well put together, solid, powerful drugs, just a good run.

I would buy some cabergoline and use it if libido takes an (unexpected) drop.

Out of interest, how many cycles has he done? he is kinda… skinny…

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
That is a lot of nandrolone. 300mg/wk would be fine, considering his bodyweight.

He’ll need cabergoline and likely need to increase the AI dosage. There’s no reason to put that much effort into the cycle and skimp on something as important as caber when it comes to prolactin side effects.

Those decanoate esters are going to take a while to peak so it would be best to frontload.

Other than that I think the cycle is ok. [/quote]

Oh yeah, i agree - frontload.

My friends email to me:

Hey Buddy,

I saw your post and I read the responses. Tell your bros I agree with them on pretty much everything they suggested. I was already on the fence about frontloading so Iâ??m going to go ahead and frontload both injectables the first week. I know it seems a bit high but Iâ??m going to double the dosage of test the first week. Iâ??ll keep the nandrolone dosage the same for the first week and then drop it down to half that the rest of the cycle. So this is what it will look like for the first 9 weeks:

Week 1 Test Deca 1500mg
Week 1 Nandrolone 600mg

Week 2-9 Test Deca 750mg
Week 2-9 Nandrolone 300mg

I know itâ??s not normal to double the dosage when frontloading but I ran a mock up on roidcalc and Iâ??m happy with the results. Iâ??m also okay with dropping the nandrolone dosage after the first week since I was worried about deca dick in the first place. Itâ??s my first time using nandrolone so Iâ??m okay with only doing 300mg a week.

Besides, it puts my deca/test ratio at 300/750 which I like a lot better than the original 600/750 ratio. Iâ??m hoping that this new ratio will curb any sexual sides since it looks like caber is going to take about 4 weeks to procure. Did you tell your bros that I already started the cycle two days ago? I didnâ??t see any mention of it in your post. At any rate, feel free to post this email to see what they say about my changes.

Also, after reading J-Jâ??s response I think Iâ??m going to increase the Dbol dosage to 60mg a day(despite what you think) and double the AI dosage to avoid puffiness. Now quit mothering me Bitch! Laters!

He should know that the ratio of Test to nandrolone will not have an effect on the sexual side effects, assuming there is enough T to replace natural levels. One prolactin increases no amount of extra test will get it to go back down. Cabergoline is necessary to control prolactin based side effects

[quote]Tonkaboy wrote:

Also, after reading J-Jâ??s response I think Iâ??m going to increase the Dbol dosage to 60mg a day(despite what you think) and double the AI dosage to avoid puffiness. Now quit mothering me Bitch! Laters!
[/quote]

I don’t remember suggesting you increase the dose? If you want to increase it to that - fine, just don’t do it using my good name.

I don’t know people on the forums and as such i NEVR recommend someone use over 50mg a day for longer than 6 weeks. Never.

If however you have had a Liver Function Test done recently, you don’t drink alcohol regularly or to excess (that’s ‘OR’, not ‘AND’), use recreational drugs or use oral medicines like Acetaminophen on a regular basis i would not think it a potential problem.

Point is, those people who run very high doses usually (or should) know the health of their liver with regular tests. Your’s could be about to give out genetically and this cycle at that dose may send it through your arse.

It pisses me off when people read between (my) lines and then ASSUME i gave the ‘ok’ - read what i wrote lad… do you know the state of your liver or are you assuming? I think it is the latter, and you CAN lie to me but it isn’t my liver…

Thanks JJ and Bonez. My friend is in better shape because of all the valuable information you guys shared.