T Nation

Dextrose PWO

What do people think of this? A dialogue I was having with someone on another board. My post (directly below) was in response to his assertion that complex carbs could be better in terms of fat gain than simple carbs.

Originally Posted by jsbrook
"Swole, I agree with everything you said except for dex contributing to fat gains. Physiologically, there’s no reason why fast-acting carbs post-workout should lead to fat gain anymore easily than complex carbs. For those who are experiencing problems, it’s beause their overall calories are out-of-whack.

I’ve never known anyone to benefit in terms of body composition by switching away from fast-acting carbs and keeping calories the same."

From swole: "Excess glycogen is stored as fat. If your body does not utilize the dex ingested PWO immediately by either (1) replenishing your glycogen stores, or (2) as energy, it is stored as fat by raising your triglycerides. Excess sugar (simple sugar) is directly related to increased triglycerides, the absolute worse, most unhealthy kind of fat.

As you probably know, high triglycerides is a leading cause of coronary heart disease.

Let?s say someone can store the maximum in their body, or 350 grams of glycogen. They then do a workout and expend 50 grams of glycogen. Then, PWO, they drink a dex/protein drink that includes 100 grams of dex. The excess 50 grams (350-50+100=400. 400-350 = 50 grams excess) can?t be stored; because your muscles are full.

What I am saying is that if that excess 50 grams is not expended, it will to turn to fat. Simple sugar = insulin spike. Insulin spike not used as glycogen = increased triglycerides.

Now that situation would probably not happen to you, but I can see it happening to someone who does not work out intensely. Think of the person who has that drink, then sits down with a meal that has even more simple carbs. So instead of getting an excess 50 grams, they might add another 100 in simple carbs on top of that.

Hopefully, this would not happen to most people on this board, but I can see it happening to someone who is overweight, or someone who has poor dietary habits, or someone who does not work out intensely."

Not sure that I agree with his reasoning.

Or, rather, I suppose dex/malto is not appropriate if someone doesn’t work out intensly enough. But assuming a real workout, it should not promote fat gain just because someone is overweight.

I think simple sugars have their place in post workout to create an anabolic environment for muscle growth and the key is speed so low gi carbs surely won’t make the cut.

The question is quantity and if the excess would be converted to fat. However i do recall CW saying its allright to eat everything in sight within i think 2 hours postworkout. So what gives?

I think everything in site is an exaggeration. Not everyone is in a bulking phase, and not everyone is not already overweight.

The actual window for improving mass, as I understand it, is a full 24 hours after a work-out. It’s also been said to be one hours and two hours. It seems to change depending who’s doing the writing.

At any rate, common sense is often wrong, but science is often proven and later disproven, too. Science is hypothesis open to revision by its nature, rarely something completely “proven” anyway. Common sense should tell you that eating everything in sight is an idea that is better for some than others, and at some points in time than others. Many of us are eating so poorly in the first place that we can’t afford to take many blanket statements about nutrition or health for granted.

[quote]shinchan wrote:
I think simple sugars have their place in post workout to create an anabolic environment for muscle growth and the key is speed so low gi carbs surely won’t make the cut.

The question is quantity and if the excess would be converted to fat. However i do recall CW saying its allright to eat everything in sight within i think 2 hours postworkout. So what gives? [/quote]

I agree that simple carbs are optimal. CW is wrong. Or rather that’s not what he mean. You’re not supposed to eat everything site postworkout if that puts you 4000 calorie over your desired totals. He means it’s important to eat big post-workout. And, really, it is.

[quote]Kablooey wrote:
I think everything in site is an exaggeration. Not everyone is in a bulking phase, and not everyone is not already overweight.

The actual window for improving mass, as I understand it, is a full 24 hours after a work-out. It’s also been said to be one hours and two hours. It seems to change depending who’s doing the writing.

At any rate, common sense is often wrong, but science is often proven and later disproven, too. Science is hypothesis open to revision by its nature, rarely something completely “proven” anyway. Common sense should tell you that eating everything in sight is an idea that is better for some than others, and at some points in time than others. Many of us are eating so poorly in the first place that we can’t afford to take many blanket statements about nutrition or health for granted.

[/quote]

Hmm. I don’t think most peole here are eating poorly at all. It’s not so much that things change depending on who’s writing them. It’s that we gain a greater understanding and hence new ways of applying things optimally. The key is optimally. Personally, I agree the window is 24 hours. And that protein and fast-acting carbs post-workout is optimal. Personally, I notice better recovery when having a shake than a whole foods meal.

Well it really dosent matter. The Dex/malto will be better immediate PWO as it will not only refill glycogen but the main effect is to halt the catabolic state. To give the body fuel to burn besides the muscle. Your glycogen will get refilled throughout the day.

So let say you depleted 50g of glycogen and took 75 grams of dex/malto, and the same amount of carbs from oats or waht not. You will still have 25 extra floating around to be stored. The difference being however that the oats slowly released the carbs and the dex gave an immediate dose which may have led to a little srtorage but it STOPPED the catabolsim.

So maybe store a little sugar PWO and spare/build LBM that will burn more sugar, or not gain as much stored sugar and burn more muscle.

I just think the optimal and ONLY time for those simple sugars is PWO. Other than pre/during, after w/o I avoid it like the plague and hell yes oats and such are AWESOME then.

Just my take,
Phill

[quote]Phill wrote:
Well it really dosent matter. The Dex/malto will be better immediate PWO as it will not only refill glycogen but the main effect is to halt the catabolic state. To give the body fuel to burn besides the muscle. Your glycogen will get refilled throughout the day.

So let say you depleted 50g of glycogen and took 75 grams of dex/malto, and the same amount of carbs from oats or waht not. You will still have 25 extra floating around to be stored. The difference being however that the oats slowly released the carbs and the dex gave an immediate dose which may have led to a little srtorage but it STOPPED the catabolsim.

So maybe store a little sugar PWO and spare/build LBM that will burn more sugar, or not gain as much stored sugar and burn more muscle.

I just think the optimal and ONLY time for those simple sugars is PWO. Other than pre/during, after w/o I avoid it like the plague and hell yes oats and such are AWESOME then.

Just my take,
Phill[/quote]

Agreed, Phill. Thanks for the input!