Dextrose, Malto, and Honey, Oh My!

Wow Bill… that was a rather unpleasant response.

All my replies have been genuine, and my way of thinking through everything you have said, but it looks like you took it the wrong way.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
justmarvin wrote:But yet you also said “There was no intention of an implication that the muscles can’t use what was once ever fructose someplace else in the body but is glucose now when reaching the muscle.” It sounds like a contradiction but maybe i’m not understanding right, would you please clarify? thanks.

I said the muscles can’t use fructose. They use glucose (in terms of what sugar they use.)

You replied that well they can use fructose because the liver can convert fructose to glucose.

I replied Well they are using glucose then, aren’t they, not fructose, they themselves can’t use fructose. By the way, generally the glucose that had been fructose spends considerable time stored as glycogen before being released as glucose, rather than being promptly delivered.

There was no reason for you to take my statement as supposedly now supporting any belief that consuming fructose results in rapid delivery of similar or large amounts of glucose to the bloodstream relevant to the purposes of a a PWO drink, which is the context we’re talking about. It does not. But instead you post that supposedly I’m contradicting myself.[/quote]

I reread what I posted as it’s been some time now, and apparently – you need to reread it too.

Why are you saying that I said that you are (in your own words:)“supporting any belief that consuming fructose results in rapid delivery of similar or large amounts of glucose to the bloodstream”? I did not say that you are saying that! And that is not the “contradiction” that I questioned you about, and I said it “sounded” to me like a contradiction and was asking if you can “please” clarify. Instead you decide to step on your soap box.

I read my post and the one that sounded like a contradiction to me are the two things I quoted you side by side.

And basically wondering from the start of all of this - why people claim that Fructose is more likely to turn to fat than being used to refill muscle glycogen stores - especially Post Workout if there is a need for the muscles to be replenished, why wouldn’t the body convert fructose to glucose to refill muscle glycogen stores…

And in practical application, the reason I ask, is because I drink a couple tablespoons of raw honey and grape juice with whey protein for my PWO. A good amount of fructose in there apparently. So I am asking not just for debate… but because I want to know because that is what I am taking. But as of yet, I have not heard a clear cut reason to justify the prominent notion that fructose will more likely be turned to fat than to be used for muscle glycogen…

First of all, that is just messed up. “Mistaken assupmtion that [I] am asking questions to try to learn.” Again, I say that all my questions were genuine and my way of thinking through everything you said.

Second of all, I was NOT arguing back about fat conversion, I basically said that every definition I read online has Fat conversion in the definition of gluconeogenesis and was wondering why that was. It was more a question than a statement of fact, that’s why I said “im not sure myself.”

Third of all, why do you say “what value was there to you in my having provided the information?” as if I had no right to inquire about it due to some higly reputable stated information, when your information in this matter was quite frankly, and I quote: “What?!? No, fat cannot. As I said, some amino acids can, some cannot.”

Well the fat-to-glucose is besides the point, it was mentioned in brief passing, clearly not the issue and not the bulk of what i was asking… but it’s not me who is putting it in the limelight right now. Clearly my questioning was on fructose.

[quote]I just don’t know where this is getting.

I’ve explained very adequately I think and as well gave you a link to a quite good article which should answer all your questions.[/quote]

Why can’t you just be straight forward and cut to the chase with your main points and then cite the link url for support? Instead you give me a 18 page study to read. Not to mention, that the study “Fructose, insulin resistance, and metabolic dyslipidemia” isn’t very reader friendly nor interesting to anyone that’s not an MD or enjoys reading medical textbook format. I did look at it, and it has a section that talks about fructose turning to fat (what I was interested in) reduced insulin sensitivity, etc. but that’s not really in the context of the bodybuilder especially Post workout when the muscle is in need of glycogen, is it? So why would fructose still be inclined to be converted to fat?? vs. Glucose for muscle glycogen…

[quote]I’m not trying to be short or dismissive, it’s just that there is no point in being way repetitious particularly when clear statements are being argued with and by means of word play made to be supposedly wrong, e.g., arguing that muscle is able to use fructose contrary to my statement, when in fact it still is glucose that they are using (or fatty acids derived from fructose metabolism, to be more complete.)

You can make that “wrong” if you want on your argument that they are able to use what once was fructose but now it not, or say I am contradicting myself, but really dealing with that is just not the kind of thing I want to do.[/quote]

Again, you are misunderstanding, I am not nitpicking or trying to wordplay…

Anyway, I really don’t like the tone of your reply… but, I won’t take it personally.

JM

[quote]Addiction wrote:
justmarvin wrote:

So, perhaps Fructose isn’t as bad as people make it out to be as far as for post-workout, not to mention pre-workout as those two studies seem to suggest.

JM

I dare say there is nothing bad about it, but the whole point of post workout nutrition is to get the carbs, protein etc into your muscles as quick as possible so you can start the recovery process ASAP. Combination of dextrose glucose and a glucose polymer maltodextrin has a synergistic effect of creating an insulin response but also having a high rate of osmosis, kick starting the recovery far quicker than fructose ever could. [/quote]

thanks for your reply,

i’m not too familiar with the “rate of ososis” factor or how that plays into this…

But, would you say that raw Honey+Grape Juice+Whey would be OK substitute? I don’t really have dextrose or malto available to me, and I would rather prefer raw honey + grape juice as my carb source anyway.

And wouldn’t grape juice spike the insulin enough?

And you say there is nothing bad about fructose. So you are not with the school of thought that fructose is more likely to turn to fat than to be used to restore muscle glycogen? That was one of my main concerns.

Thanks,

JM

Honey,raw, natural,unprocessed honey is a seriously potent muscle builder.It contains certain ezymes, chemicals and a perfect sugar makeup to seriously repair muscle and make the body stronger.

[quote]steel_12 wrote:
Honey,raw, natural,unprocessed honey is a seriously potent muscle builder.It contains certain ezymes, chemicals and a perfect sugar makeup to seriously repair muscle and make the body stronger.[/quote]

Please expand on how honey is so seriously potent and contains the perfect sugar makeup to seriously repair muscle and make the body stronger.

What is the perfect sugar makeup?

Which enzymes and chemicals does it contain to repair muscle?

One of my fav.'s after a workout is 7 grain grain bread (toasted) with all natural PB, then honey on top of it.

Spikes the insulin like crazy!

You can almost feel your pancreas releasing insulin lol

Hi BBB, thanks for your reply.

“the exception being odd-chain fatty acids” (wikipedia) lol, but the whole fat-to-glucose thing again was just a passing comment, but I had mentioned it because the definitions of gluconeogenesis has to do with fat conversion to: define:gluconeogenesis - Google Search

“The process of making glucose (sugar) from its own breakdown products or from the breakdown products of lipids (fats) or proteins.”

“The production of glucose, a carbohydrate, from either fat or protein.”

But I guess that clears it up, that not all fatty acids can be converted, thanks.

But I guess my train of thought was that the body is resourceful enough to use the right fuel when there is a demand for it. So again, my main questioning was towards the point of – why would fructose after conversion to glucose in the liver be turned to Fat instead of being used to refill muscle glycogen?

Which you comment on in your next thought:

[quote]Secondly, you say “why wouldn’t the body convert fructose to glucose to refill muscle glycogen stores…”. Because the body doesn’t work this way. I agree that it might be better if it did, but evolution/god/whatever has seen fit to deny us this capability. That’s just the way it is.

Look, if you eat fruit PWO, the fructose in it will be converted to liver glycogen. The liver can only hold so much of this before it has to convert the excess fructose into fat.
[/quote]

That is what I’m wanting to know, the reason to this notion, and “that’s just the way it is” doesn’t really show anything. Why wouldn’t it use the converted glucose to refill the demand of muscle glycogen as well? Why would it ignore that demand and then turn to fat?

[quote]I hope this helps to clear things up a little.

BBB[/quote]

Thanks BBB, I really appreciate the reply and taking the time to comment. But it still doesn’t explain things to justify the notion that Fructose would rather convert to fat than to glucose to meet the demand for muscle glycogen…

Thanks,

JM

[quote]MNguns wrote:
One of my fav.'s after a workout is 7 grain grain bread (toasted) with all natural PB, then honey on top of it.

Spikes the insulin like crazy!

You can almost feel your pancreas releasing insulin lol[/quote]

Actually I think honey isn’t a high GI food, so doesn’t spike insulin as much as other things… that’s why I throw in grape juice which might be better at spiking insulin but haven’t double checked on that.

As far as PB and 7 grain bread, that actually lessens the insulin spike, PB containing fat… you probably want to consume liquid carbs + whey as a Post Workout Shake and then consume your PB sandwhich with honey which sounds delicious by the way :smiley:

JM

[quote]HK24719 wrote:
steel_12 wrote:
Honey,raw, natural,unprocessed honey is a seriously potent muscle builder.It contains certain ezymes, chemicals and a perfect sugar makeup to seriously repair muscle and make the body stronger.

Please expand on how honey is so seriously potent and contains the perfect sugar makeup to seriously repair muscle and make the body stronger.

What is the perfect sugar makeup?

Which enzymes and chemicals does it contain to repair muscle?[/quote]

Hi, HK, I can’t speak for Steel, or his comment :slight_smile: but raw honey is indeed very compact with nutrients and enzymes antioxidants and is antibacterial, great stuff, and there are studies out regarding honey that shows its benefits. Also, the other study I quoted showing that it makes as a great Pre-workout food in sustaining energy levels compared to the energy product counterparts like glucose gels, dextrose, etc.

I actually prefer consuming honey because of this - pact with nutrients and energizing. Whereas, dextrose and maltodextrin are empty calories devoid of nutrients that are from Genetically-modified corn (bringing to mind a debated issue on the consumption of GMO foods, which you can research about).

Honey is said to be 50/50 on fructose to glucose ratio. So the only thing that I can that someone can say honey is a “lesser” carb source is because of the fructose. But then it hasn’t been adequately explained why the body wouldn’t be able to use the fructose-converted-to-glucose to refill muscle glycogen after meeting liver glycogen needs.

[quote]justmarvin wrote:
Hi, HK, I can’t speak for Steel, or his comment :slight_smile: but raw honey is indeed very compact with nutrients and enzymes antioxidants and is antibacterial, great stuff, and there are studies out regarding honey that shows its benefits. Also, the other study I quoted showing that it makes as a great Pre-workout food in sustaining energy levels compared to the energy product counterparts like glucose gels, dextrose, etc.

I actually prefer consuming honey because of this - pact with nutrients and energizing. Whereas, dextrose and maltodextrin are empty calories devoid of nutrients that are from Genetically-modified corn (bringing to mind a debated issue on the consumption of GMO foods, which you can research about).

Honey is said to be 50/50 on fructose to glucose ratio. So the only thing that I can that someone can say honey is a “lesser” carb source is because of the fructose. But then it hasn’t been adequately explained why the body wouldn’t be able to use the fructose-converted-to-glucose to refill muscle glycogen after meeting liver glycogen needs.[/quote]

I’m not against honey, but you apparently missed my sarcasm about it being a “seriously potent muscle builder” and it’s ability to “seriously repair muscle and make the body stronger.”

Ok ill elaborate.I do understand your sarcasm, though,because i used to think like you, until i tried it out myself.

Honey is composed of sugars like glucose and fructose and minerals like magnesium, potassium, calcium, sodium chlorine, sulphur, iron and phosphate. It contains vitamins B1, B2, C, B6, B5 and B3. Besides the above, copper, iodine, and zinc exist in it in small quantities.It also contains several hormones(like royal jelly,if youve heard of it) and antioxidants that prevent the formation of free radicals.This amazing chemical makeup is very, very easily absorbed and assimilated by the human body,because of the easy absorption of the glucose and fructose combination.

You have just finished an intense training session.You benched 350,dipped 135,rowed 275, pulled 400 and really damaged and depleted the muscles.Your cortisol levels have risen dramatically.This is where honey steps up to “seriously repair muscle and make the body stronger”-the glucose and fructose will replentish the muscle, lower coertisol as well as shuttle the combination of amazing micronutrients into the starving muscle.At this point, postworkout,it is very,very hard for it to be stored as fat, if you train with hard intensity.
The reason I wrote it contains “the perfect sugar makeup”, because the fructose in honey goes straight to refill liver glycogen stores, allowing for the glucose to go straight to the muscle.
If you are not convinced, try it.There is nothing wrong with experimenting.I guarantee ull thank me for this.3 tablespoons postworkout with a protein shake.

[quote]steel_12 wrote:
Ok ill elaborate.I do understand your sarcasm, though,because i used to think like you, until i tried it out myself.

Honey is composed of sugars like glucose and fructose and minerals like magnesium, potassium, calcium, sodium chlorine, sulphur, iron and phosphate. It contains vitamins B1, B2, C, B6, B5 and B3. Besides the above, copper, iodine, and zinc exist in it in small quantities.It also contains several hormones(like royal jelly,if youve heard of it) and antioxidants that prevent the formation of free radicals.This amazing chemical makeup is very, very easily absorbed and assimilated by the human body,because of the easy absorption of the glucose and fructose combination.

You have just finished an intense training session.You benched 350,dipped 135,rowed 275, pulled 400 and really damaged and depleted the muscles.Your cortisol levels have risen dramatically.This is where honey steps up to “seriously repair muscle and make the body stronger”-the glucose and fructose will replentish the muscle, lower coertisol as well as shuttle the combination of amazing micronutrients into the starving muscle.At this point, postworkout,it is very,very hard for it to be stored as fat, if you train with hard intensity.
The reason I wrote it contains “the perfect sugar makeup”, because the fructose in honey goes straight to refill liver glycogen stores, allowing for the glucose to go straight to the muscle.
If you are not convinced, try it.There is nothing wrong with experimenting.I guarantee ull thank me for this.3 tablespoons postworkout with a protein shake.[/quote]

I’ve used honey plenty. In fact, my father is a bee keeper, so I’ve had access to really good honey my entire life.

Still, I don’t find it to be anywhere near the miraculous muscle-building, recovery food that you claim it is. Just look at what Bill Roberts wrote earlier in this thread.

"Honey is slightly more than half fructose, which is much too much for a post-workout drink as muscle cannot utilize fructose.

I think a PWD should at the least be high in glucose or be all glucose in terms of carbs. If all glucose, though, there should be a refeed after one hour with complex carbs and protein, whereas if there was a lot of maltodextrin perhaps one can go 2 hours."

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Well look, I don’t truly know all the biochemical pathways in the body, but numerous experiments have shown that (for whatever reason) fructose cannot be converted into muscle glycogen.

Yes, it might be better for us if the body had that capability, but it doesn’t. Wishing it were so won’t make it happen.

Fructose does not immediately turn to fat. First it will top up stores of liver glycogen. But, once the liver is full, well where else can the fructose go? The body does not excrete sugar and since fructose cannot go into muscle, what choice does the body have but to store the surplus energy? Since fat is the most energy dense storage substrate, and since the liver is full, the excess fructose has to be converted into fat.

BBB[/quote]

Hi, I have been researching more into this just now, and it seems a lot of these studies are looking at the man-made, synthetic High Fructose Corn Syrup containing unbound fructose which is not found in nature. I don’t think it’s fair to compare that with fructose found in natural fruit, fruit juice, and honey. High Fructose Corn Syrup is found in the likes of Soda, candy, and is a preservative to make foods last longer, and is driven into production because it’s cheap, and it’s manufactured not from fruit but from corn.

It seems that the unbound fructose as in High Fructose Corn Syrup is not taken in well by the body and actually causes problems like preventing use of key minerals by the heart, high cholesterol levels, accelerates aging process, high triglycerides, obesity, makes blood cells more prone to clotting, etc. This does not seem to be the case with naturally bound fructose as found in nature. It does appear that High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) is a negative to be avoided as it has myriads of health problems, people have gone to such lengths to eliminate all HFCS from their diet which is recommended, but this is NOT the same as naturally occuring bound fructose in natural food. It is processed differently by the body!

HFCS skips the processing by the body that would be present with fructose found in whole fruits, honey, etc. It would be silly to associate all the evils of High Fructose Corn Syrup (soda pop, candy, junk food, etc) to naturally occuring bound fructose in natural foods (whole fruits, honey, natural fruit juice). It’s comparing apples and oranges. It’s like Fake fructose Vs. Real fructose (although, the HFCS manafacturer’s would like you to believe otherwise). Bound, natural fructose is better utilized by the body.

It seems to me that all the studies declaring the evils of “fructose” and its inclination toward high lipid fat conversion, insulin sensitivity, obesity, etc. was done on High Fructose Corn Syrup which is a synthetic, unbound, man-made Fructose not naturally occurring in nature. So maybe those studies show that man isn’t necessarily smarter than nature and the effects when it tries to tamper with it. And so we’re back to square one, why wouldn’t the body be able to use the natural Fructose-converted-to-Glucose to refill muscle glycogen stores?

[quote]Firebug9 wrote:
Bill, just a question on Honey. What are your thoughts on the differences between Organic Raw Honey and the stuff you get in the grocery store?

Malinda[/quote]

I’m not Bill but raw honey contains highly volatile organic compounds. 170 fahreneit is more than enough to get those volatile compounds out of the honey and honey without those compounds is no more than a mixture of fructose and glucose.
The medicinal properties of honey come from that tiny amount of flavonoids…

Coach,

What do you recommend for dopamine deficiency nd also , what can cause this to occur ?

Many thanks ~