T Nation

Depressing — The Road Down is Much Quicker than the Road Up

And clearly you read none of my posts. None.

I took it for mental clarity. I worked out. I got stronger and bigger. But I never stayed at the gym to take selfies or practice posing. My goal was just to get bigger and stronger… not even compete. Just see where it’d take me.

But now, if GH works… it’s to at least fill in my mediums again, eat healthily, and maintain that size. It did get difficult at 98kg to go up 3 stories (but that was DBOL and water weight over 1-2 weeks).

Now go look at yourself in the mirror and fantasize about how good you think ladies think you look because you’re on gear and spend 20 minutes posing down for nobody. I have day trading to do in 20 minutes. :slight_smile:

You were trying to justify the use of 500mg of test because it made you feel better, when in fact it was an undiagnosed condition causing the issue. And as i have mentioned before you were in part given more by your doc because you pushed for it and he was too incompetent to take the steps in finding said condition.
Sorry but that was an error in your thinking. Had it not been concluded that it was a gh deficentcy in the end it could be down right dangerous for someone looking through this forum and at their wits end looking for a solution to feeling like shit. Its lucky the guys here are knowledgeable and proved you were wrong.

In most circumstances this is not a TRT dose. Think more 100mg-150mg. You will only be on a replacement dose of gh as well as the replacement dose of test. You will not be able to hold the body composition you were holding on 500mg of test. As mnben87 mentioned high T levels are related to high gh levels. In your case the high T may have had you at normal levels of gh, hence why you felt good.

I do apologise if this comes across as confrontational but be realalistic here, you have a lot of people telling you the same thing yet you continue arguing your point in one way or another.

250mg test/wk + 3iu GH/day would be considered a permablast for most.


It was diagnosed as hypogonadism. The Endocrine Society says 200mg. But, I still had brain fog. My doctor, not being an endo by trade (GP), upped my dose as I pushed for it since it didn’t clear my brain fog, etc. until 500mg. My rationale behind this is 100mg ibuprofen helps some while others, like me, need 800mg; our bodies are just wired differently.

It turns out I have hypogonadism (still need TRT) and a GH deficiency, which mimics the side effects of hypogonadism… so how am I or a doctor supposed to know if 500mg worked (previously stated by someone, masked the other condition)?

You sure know American medicine. Live in social care for a decade and get the runaround. I wouldn’t have known this if my pharmacist’s husband wasn’t a Doc who was friends with this doc and got me in on the study. In America, with insurance, you can get treated much quicker and by people who know what they’re doing (as I previously stated, Japan was 30 years behind by prescribing methyltestosterone up until like 2017 for TRT, and now do 125mg every week or 250mg every 3 weeks plus 5000-10000iu hCG once a month… while in America, it’s up to 200mg per week, split, with aromatase inhibitors).

Show me anyone here that proved me wrong besides a doctor that ran tests. Everyone said it was unsafe, check. I confirmed that I’d rather live 10 years clear-minded than another day with a bag over my head or getting to the point of sleeping 18hr days again. That’s not life.

There’s literally no point to be argued. You are not my consulting doctor.

I know TRT may not hold on 92kg lean… but I’ll take 85. Hopefully, I can get 250mg at least. I think that’s a safe cruise…

Well when I got to 92kg, I’d continue growing gram by gram daily on 500mg test. I dunno if it’ll be as insane strength/mass gains as 500, but it will definitely help me progress. I think I will plateau out quicker than I would have ever on 500 (if I could keep buying more food).

But this is where I think you’re wrong also. If I have a GH deficiency, meaning 0 GH, and people make an equivalent to 3iu daily… I will be just right up there with them on a natural level while they are essentially on 6iu, if you know what I mean.

Thats not correct. People medicinally taking HGH are typically 1-1.5iu under the age of 30 and after 30 about 1iu per day. I’ve read articles that state even less but this is what I’ve read on the higher side. Also of note is that females typically need more than males.


Heres one I just looked up…

If you decide that a patient is a candidate for GHRT you should start them off at a dose of about 4
IU (3 IU= 1 mg) a week and gradually increase the dose until you achieve the desired IGF-1 level and
clinical results. The average dose to achieve an IGF-1 of 290 in females and 350 in males is 8IU per
week. The average female dose is 0.6 mg/day, while the average male dose is 0.4 mg/day – women
need higher doses than men in order to achieve the same clinical results. Elderly men often require less
GH. In the past, patients were often given GH just two or three times a week. This is not good practice…


You have taken snippets of what I’ve said and replied to them individually (not making a whole lot of sense to begin with). When you read my whole comment, the majority of what you have said is irrelevant.

I feel this thread is at the point where it isn’t really going anywhere.
Congrats on finding the issue, I hope your recovery is fast. I’m out, good night/day to you.

It should be noted also that IGF-1 at 350 is pretty high.


Because hes a fucking idiot , stop trying to help someone that’s lying his ass off . He’s an attention craving little bitch …Post a pic of yourself @baka and also post a pick of your new script as well or shut the fuck up , you’re annoying just like @unreal24278 . Speak english and stop being a text book , nobody likes a know it all and especially one that has sooo many physical and mental problems yet tries to comment on everyone else. Fix your own problems if in fact they are not just made up like baca . You two and Vonko should all play “have you ever…” and see who has had the most problems !! Grow a set and stop crying oh this is wrong with me or that or anxiety or depression . Takes some more pills and meds ya addicts ,.

Implying that anyone who receives meds for anxiety or depression is an addict is a great way to show you are ignorant and lack empathy.

Your and others lack of understanding around mental health is a big problem. Because of attitudes like this, it is harder for people who need help to get it.

Just because you don’t understand or believe something to be true has no impact on the actual truth of the matter. It is fallacious reasoning.

This is demonstrably false. I appreciate in depth knowledge on AAS. The gritty details are huge building blocks to understanding.

I personally don’t get into as many details with posters who obviously are a long way away from that level of understanding, as I think it would go in one ear and out the other in most cases. That is my personal choice. Just because someone else’s way of helping (what @unreal24278 is trying to do), is different than what you like doesn’t make it wrong.


Also, I’m a disabled vet (as to why meds)… so… thank me for my service while you’re at it, @150mgaweek. I lost 6 years of my daughter’s (from 1-7) life so you could speak so negatively about everyone else.

I said no pic because I sell a lie. I don’t know what’s hard to understand of that? If I can convince someone they can do it without 500mg test… they pay me for that lie. If that pic was found because, surely, Japan is not as diverse as you think it is in America, I could lose out on a lot of money, probably dobule your daytime job at McDonald’s since you sound so disgruntled.

I read a lot about testosterone (50 med journals) and Primo, because that’s all we have legal access to in Japan. I did read a bit on DBOL before starting, but not peer-reviewed stuff like I did trying to determine what was wrong with me (as doctors are inept when it comes to social care).

Thanks for this chart. It’s still confusing to me as I’ll get 15mg pens to be dosed twice daily… but unsure how much IU that is and how it converts from 15mg to ng/ML…

It will probably say how many iu per mg on the pen.

Most pharmacy grade HGH is around 3iu per mg. But as @mnben87 said you should be able to see on the pen. How that convert to ng/ml depends on how you metabolize the drug. The study I posted showed that as little 8iu/week for a male may put you at 350ng/ml which is tippy top of normal.

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Man I can’t not comment on this. I don’t think you should deceive your clients. I think if your coaching or whatever you offer is good, that your clients won’t care much if you are honest about your gear use.

I don’t think it needs to be the first thing you talk about necessarily, but I think if it comes up, that this is something to be honest about.

Obviously this is up to you. Personally, I don’t have much respect for fake nattys that sell their “secrets” to people who think they must know something based on their results.


Love it or hate it. It’s capitalism.

I just disagree to an extent here. I am selling a lie that they can achieve this without 500mg. However, I am teaching proper movements, nutrition, etc. It’s up to them to apply all of those and see where their natural testosterone takes them. Hell, they could be natty at 1100 (on high spectrum) and with my coaching actually make major gains if they are dedicated. Not gains like this… but they will gain.

I sell an image, I should say. Not a lie. It’s who they want to be, who they aspire to be, and what they think they can achieve.

Even natty personal trainers that look good sell the same lie to an extent. They have 20 years of experience and someone wants to look like them. You gonna tell them it takes 20 years of hard effort or to tell them take realistic approaches and see where each month lands you? You tell them they won’t be like you in 3 months, they lose interest and might not even sign.

Natty or not, you are selling an image and a lie to an extent. Prove me wrong here and tell your clients they’ll never be as good as you unless they work out for 20 years (or however long you have) and eat the strict diet, etc. They will quickly change their mind on commitment.

My coach is in worse shape than I am. I trust his coaching because he has gotten results consistently with his clients. I reached out to him for coaching because I know some of his clients.

I get what you are saying about selling an image. Unfortunately, many evaluate a coach’s ability by their physical appearance, and not the results they get their clients. Basically, I am upset people are dumb.

You’re not factoring in my ability though. You’re essentially stating that I am only getting and retaining clients because the image and not my coaching. Retaining comes with good training as they see results. Churn comes with the image only.

Can’t lump all coaches into 1 group… there are fake natty’s that still can coach. They just get a hell of a lot more referrals because of the image though.