T Nation

Density (or Hell on Earth)

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Voluminous wrote:
22 on Push Press today… better than the 6 I got last week ![/quote]

Yes, adaptation is quick. First because you learn to use a better strategy but also because of rapid physiological adaptations.[/quote]

Yep.

Will go back to death by next week to reset max:
Hitting wave 5 in my waves now !

You forgot great programming above :slight_smile:

4 plates a side now for Back Squat !!! (180kg); tested 1RM

20 reps for 80% (Was having discussions with God half way through :smiley: )

Loaded carries @ 60kg 5*1 min.

Whew, if you survive back squat day - survive any other day :wink:

Aiming for 200kg BS by Jan 1st… all due to Layers !

[quote]Voluminous wrote:
4 plates a side now for Back Squat !!! (180kg); tested 1RM

20 reps for 80% (Was having discussions with God half way through :smiley: )

Loaded carries @ 60kg 5*1 min.

Whew, if you survive back squat day - survive any other day :wink:

Aiming for 200kg BS by Jan 1st… all due to Layers ![/quote]
it’s20 reps for squats?
i been doin 30 and seeing stars. 13 minutes
carries 3x1 minute
congrats on the 4 plates!

[quote]domcib wrote:
it’s20 reps for squats?
i been doin 30 and seeing stars. 13 minutes
carries 3x1 minute
congrats on the 4 plates![/quote]

You are doing 13 mins… holy crap.

9 mins has me having discussions with whichever deity I believe will help me out !

Seems my middle back is always the first thing I feel the evening after squat… between carry & squeezing during ramp/density.

I hope to get 5 sometime… someday I want to catch that monster Det :slight_smile:

I’ve been giving this density a try, so far i did incline bench and squat for 30 reps in as quickest time possible.
Bench took 9mins maybe a bit less and squats took 10:30s.
I wasnt has tired as I thought I would be in fact I was really tired at all I guess all that running is actually helping.
with squats though I took more time racking it, unracking it and getting into position then squatting.
I will give push press a try tomorrow.

[quote]Voluminous wrote:

[quote]domcib wrote:
it’s20 reps for squats?
i been doin 30 and seeing stars. 13 minutes
carries 3x1 minute
congrats on the 4 plates![/quote]

You are doing 13 mins… holy crap.

9 mins has me having discussions with whichever deity I believe will help me out !

Seems my middle back is always the first thing I feel the evening after squat… between carry & squeezing during ramp/density.

I hope to get 5 sometime… someday I want to catch that monster Det :slight_smile:


[/quote]
but you are doing 20 reps. right?
so its the same stuff.
besides my 1 rm is from 275 to 315
so 80% is 225-245

and you are using the wave/ladder as your ramp?
i just do the activate, ramp, density, carry

This density set up appeals to me so I’ve been giving it a go this week.

Tried it with bench press today:

Ramp to 1 rep training max of 385
Singles at 95%, 92%, and 90%
As many reps as possible in 8 mins at 80%: 310 x 23 reps

All of the reps were done as singles and the bar was re-racked between each. Part of the challenge early on is definitely figuring out the proper pace. I can definitely see how this will result in rapid improvements. I like this approach alot.

To add on, it seems this approach is DOABLE in a caloric deficit/shredding phase. Performance seems to maintain fine and you don’t “overtrain” versus the original layer setup with clusters and HDL. Thats been my experience so far

You “overtrained” with the clusters and hdl?

[quote]LoRez wrote:
You “overtrained” with the clusters and hdl?[/quote]

In a caloric deficit, yes, it is a possiblity. In fact after 6 weeks on the original layout, the HDL volume can actually lead to a decrease in performance even if not on a caloric deficit. HDL is very powerful and actually has a much greater impact than I first suspected. Which is why I often use only 1 HDL set in a workout… you get most, if not all of the stimulatory effect without the possible negative effect on moderate/longer term progression.

Which is one of the reasons why the original HDL technique was not included in the “10 days cycle” or my work after that. It’s still a tool that I use, but just like many other training tools it is more powerful than originally thoughts and should not be used long term.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
You “overtrained” with the clusters and hdl?[/quote]

In a caloric deficit, yes, it is a possiblity. In fact after 6 weeks on the original layout, the HDL volume can actually lead to a decrease in performance even if not on a caloric deficit. HDL is very powerful and actually has a much greater impact than I first suspected. Which is why I often use only 1 HDL set in a workout… you get most, if not all of the stimulatory effect without the possible negative effect on moderate/longer term progression.

Which is one of the reasons why the original HDL technique was not included in the “10 days cycle” or my work after that. It’s still a tool that I use, but just like many other training tools it is more powerful than originally thoughts and should not be used long term.[/quote]

When using just one set of HDL do you still do other density work before/ after?

@Dave & CT - I did the singles ramp, 3 singles, then 7 minutes of density singles… Then loaded carries & I’ve been doing singles w/chin ups on the rings for about a month…I love it! My appetite has been through the roof, totally stimulated, totaled focused & got lots of perfect form & technique … From my experiment with the rings I honestly think density singles with perfect form & technique is the quickest way to bring up a lift… Noticeable biceps size too

I did with back squats yesterday…failed to mention that with squat jump activation

I did with back squats yesterday…failed to mention that with squat jump activation

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
You “overtrained” with the clusters and hdl?[/quote]

In a caloric deficit, yes, it is a possiblity. In fact after 6 weeks on the original layout, the HDL volume can actually lead to a decrease in performance even if not on a caloric deficit. HDL is very powerful and actually has a much greater impact than I first suspected. Which is why I often use only 1 HDL set in a workout… you get most, if not all of the stimulatory effect without the possible negative effect on moderate/longer term progression.

Which is one of the reasons why the original HDL technique was not included in the “10 days cycle” or my work after that. It’s still a tool that I use, but just like many other training tools it is more powerful than originally thoughts and should not be used long term.[/quote]

Huh, that’s pretty interesting. The comment caught me by surprise.

So given the earlier hypertrophy focused plan of:
Week 1: Ramp to 3RM, 3 clusters, 3 HDL
Week 2: Ramp to 2RM, 4 clusters, 2 HDL
Week 3: Ramp to 1RM, 5 clusters, 1 HDL
Week 4: Ramp to 1RM, 3 HDL, 2 Max Pump

Would you decrease the HDL sets in weeks 1 and 2, or are they at a low enough percentage of 1RM? Also, what to do with week 4?

On the other hand, this is a “just” a hypertrophy block. Because it’s interleaved with strength blocks which are focused on optimizing progression, do any modifications need to be made at all?

[quote]dave-g wrote:
This density set up appeals to me so I’ve been giving it a go this week.

Tried it with bench press today:

Ramp to 1 rep training max of 385
Singles at 95%, 92%, and 90%
As many reps as possible in 8 mins at 80%: 310 x 23 reps

All of the reps were done as singles and the bar was re-racked between each. Part of the challenge early on is definitely figuring out the proper pace. I can definitely see how this will result in rapid improvements. I like this approach alot.[/quote]
Pacing is an issue. I recently have been breaking the 30 reps down into packets of 10. So, i track how long it takes for each 10 pack. So far, the middle one has been taking the longest.

Well, maybe a better question.

Is it worth the risk getting somewhat overtrained state… and then adjusting down from there in the future? (I.e., figure out your limits by exceeding them, and then learn to keep within them)

Or is it better to just avoid hitting that point altogether?

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Well, maybe a better question.

Is it worth the risk getting somewhat overtrained state… and then adjusting down from there in the future? (I.e., figure out your limits by exceeding them, and then learn to keep within them)

Or is it better to just avoid hitting that point altogether?[/quote]

It’s better to avoid it. Which is why I only use the 5-4-3-2-1 HDL (original) as a VERY occasional intensifier now. Keep in mind that “the layer system” should actually be called a philosophy and is simply using 2-4 different methods for the same movement pattern in a workout. So you “layer in” different methods for the same movement. There are no “mandatory” method.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Well, maybe a better question.

Is it worth the risk getting somewhat overtrained state… and then adjusting down from there in the future? (I.e., figure out your limits by exceeding them, and then learn to keep within them)

Or is it better to just avoid hitting that point altogether?[/quote]

It’s better to avoid it. Which is why I only use the 5-4-3-2-1 HDL (original) as a VERY occasional intensifier now. Keep in mind that “the layer system” should actually be called a philosophy and is simply using 2-4 different methods for the same movement pattern in a workout. So you “layer in” different methods for the same movement. There are no “mandatory” method.[/quote]

I think that’s where I’m struggling a bit. I think I have a decent handle on the ramps and clusters, but I really haven’t made much sense of the density work.

I can’t really tell which density methods to use when and why. It also sounds like it’s very easy to overdo it, but not feel the consequences until much later.

So since I’m just not confident in my understanding, I’m gravitating pretty heavily toward a template as far as how things “should” be done.

How do you select which density method to use, and how do you make sure it’s enough, but not too much? You’ve mentioned several different tools, but I just don’t really understand how to use them.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Which is one of the reasons why the original HDL technique was not included in the “10 days cycle” or my work after that. It’s still a tool that I use, but just like many other training tools it is more powerful than originally thoughts and should not be used long term.[/quote]

Ha, wow. i have slacked here and there, pretty candidly in my log, on doing all the HDL all the time, and yet my gains have been unbelievable. I wonder if this laziness (aka being beat to death already and basically quitting) actually worked in my favor.