T Nation

demonstrations

Doogie, great point about the entertainment industry being considered “experts”. Phooey! But they have a large podium and a large following and they use it to their advantage to push their decidedly liberal views. Hey, it’s perfectly fine for American citizens to be against war with Iraq and express their feelings about it, the same way as it is for those to be in favor of war. However, I don’t think the Hollywood types would be in favor of any policy, foreign or domestic, presented by a Republican. Republicans are not well-liked in Hollywood, it’s been that way for a long time.

Crawford, I have a problem with people that say things like, “Despite what you think, THIS is the real answer.” Guess what? I don’t agree. What’s the problem with that?

As for the rest of the world agreeing with him, again, so what? If I cared about and did what the majority does, I’d be eating pizza, smoking, and wasting my life away with a dead-end job and no real fulfillment in my life. The majority isn’t always right.

This thread has digressed away from it’s original theme of trashing the demo’s. I also am disgusted by the celebrity mongering, but between the two call myself a democrat, not for the firm foriegn polcies (ala Carter I know) but due to my perception that they are at least more likely to care about old people, mentally ill, and disabled. For various reasons I’m happier to see my money going there then toward huge agri-business subsidies and propping up artificial industries–just my thoughts—everyone hands out the pork, the question is who they hand it to.

Well said Doc, well said.

DocT, your tone struck me as a little harsh for a friendly debate. I’m not an American, but I’m also not a Hussein appologist. I’m Canadian. However, I like the U.S. and I think that Canada and the U.S. have a lot in common, ie our shared histories and traditional population base. I often think of Canada as being America Jr. I think the U.S. was a lot better off while it was an isolationist country. This whole world policeman thing is just not a good responsibility to bear. Partly because all the bad guys now hate you (Sept 11 for example), and partly because you get a lot of their victims either being ungrateful (Somalia), or showing up at the door asking to be let in. America should never have involved itself in the Persian Gulf in the first place. It’s simply none of our/your business. The whole middle east is a big, sticky mess, and it’s smarter on the whole to not get involved. It’s not like Saddam was going to execute all the Kuwaities. It was just a power play. America was just worried about it’s oil supplies. At the very least, be a little two sided about it. Don’t blindly support Israel, or America’s special interests in a foreign land, and risk raising the ire of over a billion Muslims, millions of whom are living right under your nose in the US. Don’t get me wrong. I’m no fan of Muslim fanatics, or even Islam in general. I just don’t think it’s prudent to go galavanting off into the desert killing indiscriminantly whilst letting the relatives of these people into your home country. Sorry if I’m rambling. My views seem to coincide with Pat Buchanans. If you would like a more articulate argument, or if any one of you t-mag forum viewers would like to see things from an alternate point of view, go to http://www.amconmag.com/

Whoops, made a mistake in posting.lol The Democrats have destroyed their old image as the champion for the little guy ; now all they champion is special interest groups. Saddam is crazy, thats why he is so dangerous. C’mon now! He gassed the Kurds without even flintching, what would stop him from blowin us apart when he acquires a nuke? Nothing. He is a madman that needs to be taken out. Also, celebrities are mostly fools, most of them get by with the help of their good looks, editors and stuntmen. We, as a society, have put these people up on a huge pedestal sp? that should never have been built. We need to take them down.

as a soldier i find it disturbing that the only view that ever gets put on the news is the dissenting one. i am certain that there are more people in favor of dismantling terrorists and those who serve them then there are who are against it. but since being against terrorism and actually having the balls to do something about it makes those who would rather wish the world was a safe place cringe and feel guilty so thats the view we get. people who are afraid to make a stand and say kill the bastards hate those people that are willing to make one.

The USA stating that Iraq is evil is like calling the kettle black, throughout history they have stuck their nose where it did not belong. Foriegn Policy by the USA is the major weakness of the country, Americians (some of them) think that just because they are the big kids on the block that they can boss everyone around. Bush as a presidents has done a great job in light of Sept 11th, but he is also a president who couldn’t find his ass with both hands and a map. The man really is not able to effectively do his job. Just as Nixon had Kissinger Bush has Powell to do the dirty work. On to the subject of Iraq, the USA wants all weapons of mass destruction disarmed for fear that they will use them. The largest hoarde of weapons of mass destruction is located in America, but wait there is no outcry for them to disarm, its a joke. The inspectors in Iraq are also a joke, the USA has constantly challegened and interfered with them and their duties. The recent report released is just spin ,basically allowing the media to hear what they want. The U.S. government is getting ready to invade and once they go in they will do the same thing that they always do, oust the dictator and replace him with a puppet government (Chile, Nicaragua, Vietnam etc etc)…most of South America. The USA are basically hypocrites and as such should not be telling anyone what to do. It’s time for them to shut up and take a look at the system that has gotten them to this point.

(From a Canadian)

You missed the point completely. You were justifying the wholesale slaughter of thousands of innocents by “upset” people. There is no excuse for that. Not when the United States does it, not when the Serbs and the Kosovars do it, and definitely not when the terrorists do it.

I will use your original paragraph to make my point again. Imagine that the US had dropped a fuel air bomb in the middle of an unsuspecting Belgrade during a workday. “Oh, and by the way, regardless of what you may have heard, it’s precisely this aggressive foreign policy of Milosovic that caused the willful distruction of downtown Belgrade. You may disagree, but someone would have to be pretty angry to go through all that trouble.”

Thanks for the Serbian kindergarten history lesson though! If you really think that your cut and dry analysis of anything except perhaps President Clinton was correct, then repeat after me: “I, Harkonnen, am no longer allowed to utter the phrase ‘ignorant Americans’ for as long as I live.’”

I really think that the Iraq campaign is about Bush cleaning up the mess that Reagen and others made. It’s become a clear trend. One American regime supports a government, the next tries to dislodge it.
The Taliban and Saddam are creations of American foreign policy. I won’t be surprised if the two suffer due to the same. As it is, the Taliban has been dislodged from Kabul, and Saddam too might face the music. However, if the Taliban had cooperated on the Bin Laden issue, they’d have been around, right? So what happens if Saddam cooperates, and joins in the war against terror like Pakistan’s premier Musharaff did? It’s possible that he too will be deemed as an American ally.
Anyhow, I’m sure that the USA and Pakistan will soon go to war in about 10 years. That’s just my gut feeling.
Regarding the celebrities, are they taken that seriously? I mean, they’re there to entertain right? For them, to behave like politicians, is like politicians doing rock concerts (basically not their core competency). Or maybe the demonstrations are supposed to be their idea of entertainment?

I’m also agianst a war, let the UN inspectors do their job. Hopefully Bush is just flexing his muscles to insure that Saddam doesn’t interfere or stall them. Disarming Saddam is a good idea, if we depose him he’s got nothing to lose. He would never attack us, because he knows it would be all over once we figured out he was involved. Iraq is not a fundamentalist nation that Al Qaeda would partner with. I agree that celebs are annoying, and who cares what they think. If you ever watched the show politically correct, many of them are idiots. However, there are also conservatives in Hollywood, plenty of them. Arnold S, Steven Segal, Chuck Norris, Charleton Heston. I think there is a mix.

Alex, I apologize if my tone strikes you as a little harsh, as it’s hard to really convey true tone in writing. There is nothing at all personal about this, but I do have strong convictions and will stand by them.

So, on to your post. Whether we should be involved or not, the fact is that we ARE. We can’t go back and change the history that led us to this point. I absolutely agree that it’s a giant mess, but if we’re not proactive, we will be attacked again. Even if we do act, we’re likely to be attacked again. One of the hopes is that it’s with conventional weapons rather than WMD. If you think Hussein wouldn’t give/sell them to terrorists willing to hit us, you’re sadly mistaken. The man has gassed his own people, used nerve gas on Iranians, and had his army rape and pillage nearby Kuwait. Did his army kill all the Kuwaitis? No, all they did was rape their wives, kill random people, steal everything valuable they owned, and destroyed their homes. For what? Because that megalomaniac decided that he felt like it. He certainly has a lot more reason to hate us than that and, IMHO, would be giddy to see us struck hard.

Believe me, though, when I say that I’m not so one-sided in my views. I’ve just yet to see something convincing in Hussein/Al-Quaeda’s favor that would change my mind in the slightest.


Isolationism is great if you’ve always been an isolationist, but once you step out into that big, bad world, there’s no going back.

Uh, where are you getting your information? Regarding your, “No, all they did was rape their wives, kill random people, steal everything valuable they owned, and destroyed their homes…”

My sister has lived in Kuwait since 1988. She's married to a Kuwaiti. Has four kids. While she was here, with my parents during much of that time, when she returned, she returned to her home. And as for who took her valuables? It wasn't Hussein's men. It was her housekeepers. As a matter of fact ALL of her husband's relatives' homes where fine and none of his brothers' wives had been raped (and his sisters were fine, too). I'm not saying it was a walk in the park for the Kuwaitis, I do know of people who mysteriously dissapeaed, never to be heard from again.....BUT, I haven't rec'd any of my information from the US media, but from people who LIVE in Kuwait.

As for this "sick of celebrities" thing? Well, if anyone knew how a celebrity's brain works, this would make sense. They enjoy and seek attention. While they may complain about their lack of privacy, I think they enjoy their time in the spotlight and getting involved w/politics and issues would be the next step. And you don't think politicians are celebrities, too? C'mon....think about it. Bush has in his administration a woman responsible for some of the most successful ad marketing campaigns. Her job is to find ways to "market" Bush and his policies. Me thinks there is a very, very fine that differentiates a politician from a celebrity anymore.

Patricia, obviously it didn’t happen to every single Kuwaiti. To discount the facts based on what a few people experienced isn’t justified. Yes, my info came from American media. You make it sound like that’s a bad thing. From what I remember, it was interviews with Kuwaitis that had things of this nature done to them, giving a much broader view than the one you have. Please keep in mind that I’m not at all discounting what you say as true. Also, coalition troops stopped retreating Iraqis with truck after truck of valuables stolen from Kuwait. This was also shown in the American media and is quite indisputable. And lastly, you said it yourself. People disappeared never to be heard from again. Wonder if they just took an extended vacation?

I just don’t get why people are so apologetic toward these people? They didn’t beat Kuwait at a soccer match. They invaded their country without the slightest bit of provocation and did what they pleased until somebody stood up to them. How soon we forget.

BTW, I’ll be out of town for a few days, so I won’t get around to responding to any of this until I get back.

Celebrities aren’t paid to make American government policy decisions. They’re paid to act and sing, and most of them can’t even do that anymore. If the President or any politician at any level, for that matter, wants to surround himself/herself with competent individuals to make them look good and help shape policy, that’s fine with me. Actors, musicians, producers and directors ought to stick with their chosen occupations. Maybe then we’ll get some better movies and television shows.

How can you view the information given to you by the US media as factual…the majority of it is some fact mixed with lies(10% fact +90% lies = U.S.A. media). The information given to the public by the government is spun to give the government the situation that it wants…Think critically!!!

Backing up Doc T’s general views on Iraq, here is a link to the British government’s report on the types of human rights violations Iraq is engaging in right now:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/ nol/shared/spl/hi/middle _east/02/uk_human_rights _dossier_on_iraq/pdf/iraq _human_rights.pdf


Take out any spaces.


This was based in a large measure on the reports of organizations like Amnesty International. A few examples: Iraq employs people to rape women; political prisoners are slowly dipped into tubs of acid; the use of eye gouging; drilling hands; mock executions; real executions; mass-murder; run-of-the-mill torture; confinement in coffin-like cages, and so on. According to the report, since about two years ago, the official punishment for publicly insulting or criticizing Saddam Hussein or any members of his family was to have your tongue cut out. These punishments were actually broadcast on Iraqi TV.


While we shouldn’t be the world’s policeman, we should not hesitate from defending our national interests and the world’s interests, and if we can also put an end to these types of abuses, so much the better.

I have been very impressed with the content in these responses. Most have been very thoughtful.
Now for the exception, machiavelli. Since you do not spend much time thinking about your posts, I shall use lower-case letters to address you. If you stop being the angry Canadadien, I will address you with more respect.
Let’s go point by point through your posts. You say we stick our noses in where we are not wanted. Ever watch a demonstration around the world. 90% of the demonstrators are either posturing against the U.S. or trying to curry their favor. Speaking of currying favor, take a peek at how much free foreign aid we distribute yearly. It’s nearly more that Canada’s GDP!!! You also jump on the bandwagon about the question marks about Bush’s intelligence. Hey pal, do you have any degrees from Yale or Harvard? I’d think twice about making any aspersions against someone who has been extremely well educated. I pray that people keep underestimating Bush. He just keeps winning. Now to the discussion about the United States having weapons of mass destruction. “there is no outcry against” blah, blah, blah. To my knowledge, we have used exactly two weapons of mass destruction. Two A-bombs in 1945. If we were such a “bully” the rest of the world would have long since been overrun by the Americans using every weapon in it’s arsenal.
I have no idea what you are referring to when you talk about the U.S. interferring with the inspectors. Iraq has interfered, not the U.S.
The only point that I remotely agree on is our dubious past regarding puppet dictators. I agree we deserve some modicum of blame in that area.
In summary, you sound like you are very Anti-American. I can guess some of the reasons. Remember this, by attacking American mores and values you do not make Canada look any better. If you do not like our way of life, do not adopt it. We are not forcing you. We could easily do so. However, that would be the action of a bully.

Well said, EggNog.

(Now, am I the ONLY one that would be all of Sheryl Crow like a cheap suit in August . . . )?

(Oops. I meant all “over” Sheryl Crow like a cheap suit in August). :wink: