I’ve been researching nandrolone as a medical treatment for autoimmune disorders, and not specifically for its anabolic properties. In doing so, I’ve been trying to determine how to calculate a dosage while taking into consideration typical dosages used for bodybuilding purposes, but it’s very difficult to find sources on dosage recommendations for obvious reasons. Does anyone have a good idea of where these recommendations typically originate besides from a dealer or a buddy at the gym? Even sites like mesomorphosis, etc. tend to just state a dosage range without any real explanation on how those numbers were arrived upon.
The second question concerns running testosterone along with deca. I understand the need for testosterone to provide some of the androgenic properties that deca lacks. What I’ve been trying to figure out is whether it is necessary to adjust one’s test dosage due to the fact that deca is being administered concurrently. For instance, if I determine my test “replacement” dosage to be X mg per week based on my baseline natural test levels, does the concurrent administration of deca require that I take more than that amount due to some competing action, or less than that amount, due to the deca already exhibiting some similar action to the testosterone?
IMO 300mg a week of Deca is the default starter dose as much as 500mg of test is also considered the common jumping off point. 300mg a week seems to be the best combo for a high enough dose to see appreciable effects but not so high that the sometimes extreme shutdown occurs. Of course and as always YMMV.
As for your second question, there is no way to quantify an accurate answer for you. I understand you are basically asking if you need to take even more test than you would if you were not on Deca. If you take 500mg of test a week and then add 300mg of Deca do you then need to add more test to combat the suppression from Deca? Individual responses vary too much to give an accurate answer. Merely throwing more test at the situation is no guarantee you will avoid suppressive sides of Deca. Basically you will find how much test is good for your desired results and then you will find how much Deca you can run alongside.
In the end it will largely be your own personal experimentation. Might not be the answer you wanted but its the truth.
[quote]saps wrote:
IMO 300mg a week of Deca is the default starter dose as much as 500mg of test is also considered the common jumping off point. 300mg a week seems to be the best combo for a high enough dose to see appreciable effects but not so high that the sometimes extreme shutdown occurs. Of course and as always YMMV.
As for your second question, there is no way to quantify an accurate answer for you. I understand you are basically asking if you need to take even more test than you would if you were not on Deca. If you take 500mg of test a week and then add 300mg of Deca do you then need to add more test to combat the suppression from Deca? Individual responses vary too much to give an accurate answer. Merely throwing more test at the situation is no guarantee you will avoid suppressive sides of Deca. Basically you will find how much test is good for your desired results and then you will find how much Deca you can run alongside.
In the end it will largely be your own personal experimentation. Might not be the answer you wanted but its the truth.[/quote]
Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond.
On the first point, I guess if the dose to produce anabolism is highly individual, then I should expect the dose to produce any other kind of effect to be variable as well. The idea of just jumping in with a “common” bodybuilding dose seems a little willy-nilly for my taste, since the effect I’m going for is on the immune system, but I suppose it’s as good a starting point as any. The bottom line is: if it works, I can experiment with using less, but if it doesn’t, then it’s time to start looking into how high I’m willing to go in pursuit of the desired effect.
On the second point, I know you wrote that it’s hard to quantify whether one’s test dosage should be adjusted when taken alongside deca, but then I noticed you put your recommended dosage at 200mg more than the deca. Is this recommendation not based on the idea that since deca has such a high affinity for binding with the androgen receptor, that more test than deca is therefore necessary in order to “compete” with the deca? If so, that alone is something of an answer to my question. I see that point of view a lot on the Internet, but I also see the opposite argument as well (that deca may bind better to the receptor in muscle tissue, but not other tissues, and therefore there is no “competition” at the very sites that one is administering the testosterone for [or at least the sites that I would be administering it for]).
On the other hand, were you simply providing 500mg as a good dose to go along with 300mg of deca as a decent stack for muscle growth? In that case, it’s certainly useful information, but not for my purposes, since I’m simply using the testosterone as a temporary replacement for my shut-down endogenous production of test.
For auto immune purposes you can probably get good results with a bit less than 500mg of test a week.
Most people’s bodies are a lot more sensitive to the sides of Deca. That the reason for the fear of Deca and its reputation. Using more test is not to out compete with the Deca but rather to avoid suppression. Its common to hear of guys taking a Gram, 2 grams or test a week. I’ve rarely heard of guys using more than 600mg/wk of Deca. Most people just cannot deal with the shutdown. If thats not an issue for you then you certainly can take whatever dose you want and works for your purposes
[quote]saps wrote:
For auto immune purposes you can probably get good results with a bit less than 500mg of test a week.
Most people’s bodies are a lot more sensitive to the sides of Deca. That the reason for the fear of Deca and its reputation. Using more test is not to out compete with the Deca but rather to avoid suppression. Its common to hear of guys taking a Gram, 2 grams or test a week. I’ve rarely heard of guys using more than 600mg/wk of Deca. Most people just cannot deal with the shutdown. If thats not an issue for you then you certainly can take whatever dose you want and works for your purposes[/quote]
I guess I’m not understanding something here. I was under the impression that taking the test along with the Deca wasn’t to reduce suppression, but primarily to replace the suppressed testosterone with exogenous test, since shutdown with Deca will occur even at tiny doses. So, sure, your natural testosterone is essentially gone, but who cares, since you’re injecting enough to replace that. Obviously, it’s common practice to run more test than your body “needs” to function normally, since if you’re taking Deca in high doses in the first place, you’re doing it for the purposes of muscle gain anyway. But in my case, I’d prefer not to use much more than I “need,” if that makes any sense.
Unfortunately, I’m stuck with Deca at least for now, since that’s the drug whose effects I’m testing. The testosterone is simply to provide what my body will be lacking, due to the shutdown. In a perfect world, the Deca would be perfectly androgenic, and I wouldn’t need to run any test, but naturally that’s not the case.
Yes and no. Any aas you take in enough quantity will shut you down and so having the test in there does serve that function. However, 150mg/wk is more than enough to replace what your body naturally produces. Rare to non-existent however is the cycle which is 150mg/wk test and you name the dose of Deca. Most guys, not you in your case, but most think [erroneously] that if they throw enough test at the problem they’ll have a surplus of libido and all the benefits of test and so when Deca starts to handicap these guys they falsely assume more test is the answer.
[quote]saps wrote:
Yes and no. Any aas you take in enough quantity will shut you down and so having the test in there does serve that function. However, 150mg/wk is more than enough to replace what your body naturally produces. Rare to non-existent however is the cycle which is 150mg/wk test and you name the dose of Deca. Most guys, not you in your case, but most think [erroneously] that if they throw enough test at the problem they’ll have a surplus of libido and all the benefits of test and so when Deca starts to handicap these guys they falsely assume more test is the answer.[/quote]
Ok, so in a situation where the user it taking enough Deca to suppress all of his endogenous test production, do you think taking 150mg of test would be enough to “replace” the suppressed testosterone?
What I’m not getting is why “throwing test at the problem” wouldn’t work. Do you have any theories or opinions on why a replacement or greater dose of test wouldn’t be adequate in the face of completely suppressed natural production? I apologize if it seems like I keep asking the same question, but it’s not adding up to me, and that makes me worried that I might be missing something important here.
[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
Ok, so in a situation where the user it taking enough Deca to suppress all of his endogenous test production, do you think taking 150mg of test would be enough to “replace” the suppressed testosterone?
What I’m not getting is why “throwing test at the problem” wouldn’t work. Do you have any theories or opinions on why a replacement or greater dose of test wouldn’t be adequate in the face of completely suppressed natural production? I apologize if it seems like I keep asking the same question, but it’s not adding up to me, and that makes me worried that I might be missing something important here.[/quote]
Again yes and no. Yes 150mg/wk more than replaces what your body naturally produces. But no even on 200mg/wk of Deca you will face issues that in some cases no amount of test can address. Maybe this a better way to explain it: Deca can cause problems which test cannot fix.
Some guys get worse libido on a test only cycle of 400-500mg. Some guys get acne. Some guys lose their hair. Some have elevated BP. The reason we have and use ancillary products is to control and manage these sides. So if Deca cause the user to have difficulty achieving erection or even anorgasmia throwing extra test at it might help but it also might not help. Test can and often does help but its not a cure all because it only treats the symptoms not the actual problem. The problem when taking Deca is not too much or too little test, the problem is the Deca itself.
One of my favorite old line is : “Headaches are not caused by a lack of tylenol in the body.” Brilliant line and it applies here.
I would keep my dosage of deca no more then 80% of the test dosage… otherwise you might have a few issues with getting an erection… I am no expert just learn by personal experience… but i will tell you that muscularly, (I know that your not looking just for that) I have seen results using as little as 250mg test e, and 200mg deca per week. and I do know deca cause these joints love it!!!
[quote]andy33tx wrote:
I would keep my dosage of deca no more then 80% of the test dosage… otherwise you might have a few issues with getting an erection… I am no expert just learn by personal experience… but i will tell you that muscularly, (I know that your not looking just for that) I have seen results using as little as 250mg test e, and 200mg deca per week. and I do know deca cause these joints love it!!![/quote]
The ratio doesnt matter. So long as there is a replacement dose of test and prolactin is kept in check there should be no libido problems.
But I do agree that deca is not a drug that needs high doses for good results.
Which autoimmune disease are you trying to treat, and is it for you or someone else? Current literature shows a variation in response to various hormones depending on the disease. For example, oestrogen is possibly beneficial in RA but detrimental in lupus. Do some research before you jump in the deep end and self medicate, and perhaps email the authors of some studies in this area.
[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
Ok, so in a situation where the user it taking enough Deca to suppress all of his endogenous test production, do you think taking 150mg of test would be enough to “replace” the suppressed testosterone?
What I’m not getting is why “throwing test at the problem” wouldn’t work. Do you have any theories or opinions on why a replacement or greater dose of test wouldn’t be adequate in the face of completely suppressed natural production? I apologize if it seems like I keep asking the same question, but it’s not adding up to me, and that makes me worried that I might be missing something important here.[/quote]
Again yes and no. Yes 150mg/wk more than replaces what your body naturally produces. But no even on 200mg/wk of Deca you will face issues that in some cases no amount of test can address. Maybe this a better way to explain it: Deca can cause problems which test cannot fix.
Some guys get worse libido on a test only cycle of 400-500mg. Some guys get acne. Some guys lose their hair. Some have elevated BP. The reason we have and use ancillary products is to control and manage these sides. So if Deca cause the user to have difficulty achieving erection or even anorgasmia throwing extra test at it might help but it also might not help. Test can and often does help but its not a cure all because it only treats the symptoms not the actual problem. The problem when taking Deca is not too much or too little test, the problem is the Deca itself.
One of my favorite old line is : “Headaches are not caused by a lack of tylenol in the body.” Brilliant line and it applies here. [/quote]
Got it. Thanks for clearing this up for me. It’s definitely something I’ll have to consider.
[quote]andy33tx wrote:
I would keep my dosage of deca no more then 80% of the test dosage… otherwise you might have a few issues with getting an erection… I am no expert just learn by personal experience… but i will tell you that muscularly, (I know that your not looking just for that) I have seen results using as little as 250mg test e, and 200mg deca per week. and I do know deca cause these joints love it!!![/quote]
The ratio doesnt matter. So long as there is a replacement dose of test and prolactin is kept in check there should be no libido problems.
But I do agree that deca is not a drug that needs high doses for good results. [/quote]
Thanks for posting, guys. Hey Bonez, just to clarify, do you agree with the idea of taking more test than deca, and just feel that the ratio isn’t important? Or are you of the opinion that any amount of test that replaces one’s own should be enough once endogenous production is shut down entirely?
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Which autoimmune disease are you trying to treat, and is it for you or someone else? Current literature shows a variation in response to various hormones depending on the disease. For example, oestrogen is possibly beneficial in RA but detrimental in lupus. Do some research before you jump in the deep end and self medicate, and perhaps email the authors of some studies in this area.[/quote]
I actually have done quite a bit of research, but it’s reached the point now that I have a hypothesis I’d like to test, and considering the relative safety of a standard length cycle with moderate to low dose deca, replacement dose testosterone, and adequate ancillaries and PCT, I feel I can save myself a lot of trouble by just jumping in and observing the results.
Deciding upon the dosage of a drug to treat a disorder for which the drug has never been tried has proved to be beyond my ability, and would require more time to ascertain than I have or am willing to devote. If I felt I couldn’t self-medicate safely, of course I wouldn’t. But considering the fact that literally tens of thousands of people use these drugs every day, and in manners and doses far outside the range that I’ll be doing, I feel pretty confident that this is the appropriate next step for me.
I’ll get some blood labs before and during, but the bottom line is really this: I’m choosing a dose such that if it doesn’t work at all, I’ll essentially know that it’s very unlikely that any reasonable dose would work. However, if it does work, I can experiment with gradually less doses until I find the lower limit of what will still produce an effect. From there, I can weigh my options with regard to cycling for long-term results, etc.
[quote]andy33tx wrote:
I would keep my dosage of deca no more then 80% of the test dosage… otherwise you might have a few issues with getting an erection… I am no expert just learn by personal experience… but i will tell you that muscularly, (I know that your not looking just for that) I have seen results using as little as 250mg test e, and 200mg deca per week. and I do know deca cause these joints love it!!![/quote]
The ratio doesnt matter. So long as there is a replacement dose of test and prolactin is kept in check there should be no libido problems.
But I do agree that deca is not a drug that needs high doses for good results. [/quote]
Thanks for posting, guys. Hey Bonez, just to clarify, do you agree with the idea of taking more test than deca, and just feel that the ratio isn’t important? Or are you of the opinion that any amount of test that replaces one’s own should be enough once endogenous production is shut down entirely?[/quote]
The latter. Dbol is also a viable option at 15-20mg/d. Ive used dbol for replacement at 20mg/d on traiing days only. Not with deca though in that instance
Hey saps, if you’re still around, do you think you can spare a few minutes to answer a question for me? I’ve been trying to get a decent estimate on the half-lives of certain drugs, specifically Deca and testosterone enanthate, but opinions and “sources” differ by such enormous degrees. For example, with Deca, I’ve seen everything from 6 days to 15 days!
I recall reading once where you wrote that as a good rule of thumb, you can multiply the number of carbon atoms by 0.7 to get a decent half-life within a day or so of accuracy. Can you tell me what that formula is based on, or where you might have learned about it?
I’m working on an Excel sheet for calculating how much of a given compound will be in the body on a given day based on variables such as half-life, dose, dosing schedule, etc., but it will be practically useless if I’m not able to determine half-lives with any kind of accuracy.
If anyone else has an opinion on the subject, please feel free to chime in. Thanks.
For example, here’s one study which found a half-life of 6 days for nandrolone decanoate:
From the study:
“The following pharmacokinetic parameters were found: a mean half-life of 6 days for the release of the ester from the muscular injection depot into the general circulation; a mean half-life of 4.3 h for the combined processes of hydrolysis of nandrolone decanoate and of distribution and elimination of nandrolone; a mean nandrolone serum clearance of 1.55 1 X h-1 X kg-1.”
Granted, this study is from 1985. I’m not sure if data has come out since then to refute it.
I hope I’m not boring everybody. Here’s a good example of what appears to me to be conflicting information on the half-life of Testosterone Enanthate, assuming I’m not reading these incorrectly. From the man himself, Bill Roberts:
Steroid Profiles: Testosterone (by Bill Roberts)
Same site, different page:
Ask Bill Roberts #6 (by Bill Roberts)
[quote]"The half life of testosterone enanthate is four or five days. That does not mean that it is out of the system in that time: but rather, by that time, half of it is out of the system. Given twice that time, 3/4 will be out of the system; given three times that time, 7/8 will be out of the system, etc.
The half life of cypionate is about a day longer than that of enanthate."[/quote]
Am I misreading these? Does the former supercede the latter considering that the first article was “updated” more recently? Bill, you happen to be around to comment?
I’m not an expert, but I thought that I recently read that Bill said the half life of Test E was 5 days. If you google it, the first few links all support that as well.
Could someone explain how that affects active blood levels? The halflife may be 4-5 days, but that’s for test-e, not the testosterone resulting from the test-e. How are test blood levels affected from one dose of test-e - is there a day to day blood level chart?