forlife, I see your point. However, I thought it salient to input the views of one of the smartest men alive today on the subject.
I think if you pool the most intelligent humans in the field of science and medicine, you will find much of the same opinion. Most who believe in an afterlife, or in any literal interpretation of any religious text, are the uneducated.
[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
forlife, I see your point. However, I thought it salient to input the views of one of the smartest men alive today on the subject.
I think if you pool the most intelligent humans in the field of science and medicine, you will find much of the same opinion. Most who believe in an afterlife, or in any literal interpretation of any religious text, are the uneducated.[/quote]
Roughly 1/3 of scientists are agnostic, 1/3 are atheist, and 1/3 are believers.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a “fairy story” for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.
In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain’s most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.
Hawking, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death, human purpose and our chance existence in an exclusive interview with the Guardian today.
The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its symptoms arising, an outlook that turned the young scientist to Wagner, but ultimately led him to enjoy life more, he has said, despite the cloud hanging over his future.
[/quote]
As a scientist, Hawking ought to acknowledge how little we actually know. By asserting there is no afterlife, as if he actually knows this, Hawking is no better than the believer who insists there is.
[/quote]
Hawking is obviously incredibly knowledgeable, but he often falls into this trap of overstepping his intellectual bounds. His “death of philosophy” thing is a prime example.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a “fairy story” for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.
In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain’s most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.
Hawking, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death, human purpose and our chance existence in an exclusive interview with the Guardian today.
The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its symptoms arising, an outlook that turned the young scientist to Wagner, but ultimately led him to enjoy life more, he has said, despite the cloud hanging over his future.
[/quote]
As a scientist, Hawking ought to acknowledge how little we actually know. By asserting there is no afterlife, as if he actually knows this, Hawking is no better than the believer who insists there is.
[/quote]
Hawking is obviously incredibly knowledgeable, but he often falls into this trap of overstepping his intellectual bounds. His “death of philosophy” thing is a prime example.[/quote]
True, in fact John Lennox goes into detail about those claims in his book and how even Roger Penrose who worked with Hawking on singularity theorems has said that he has done himself a disservice by moving in this direction.
Anyways from a Christian perspective or at least what should be the Christian perspective ill put a bit of scripture as it pertains to the topic.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
As a scientist, Hawking ought to acknowledge how little we actually know. By asserting there is no afterlife, as if he actually knows this, Hawking is no better than the believer who insists there is.
[/quote]
FL, mark this one down, ol’ chum, we agree.
But you will have to admit that this goes to my oft repeated premise that the most ardent atheists like Hawking are, just as much if not more so, faithful.
There is no doubt that Hawking was a very intelligent man but his intelligence failed to propel him to the status of a god. He was still essentially just a human. A fallible, often pitiful human (as we all are).
[/quote]
Hawking is still alive. And contrary to being an ‘ardent atheist’ he has remained obscure on the subject until recently when he described heaven as a ‘fairy tale for people afraid of the dark’. He has also said recently that he doesn’t believe in a ‘personal God’. He has never presented an argument against the existence of God however.
[quote]Egilll wrote:
Why do people who believe in heaven treat death as such a sad thing, I mean isn’t heaven supposed to be a great place? [/quote]
Because sorrow is a feeling in the person who mourns, it is basically a form of self-pity, but it’s not a flaw. Not mourning for anyone is a flaw.
[quote]Egilll wrote:
Why do people who believe in heaven treat death as such a sad thing, I mean isn’t heaven supposed to be a great place? For example lets say that a young boy from a religious family gets cancer (which I think is terribly sad and I hope none of you have gone through that) and after fighting and suffering for months he dies and his parents are like “boo hoo”.
Shouldn’t they be throwing a party instead celebrating the “fact” that he is not suffering anymore and having a great time in heaven? Believers and non believers, what’s your opinion of this?[/quote]
That’s an excellent question. Most religious leaders teach that earth is just a proving ground and that heaven is where we’re really meant to live. If we were designed to die and go to heaven, wouldn’t people look forward to it as much as a kid looks forward to growing up to be an adult or a teenager looks forward to getting married? Or why don’t people look forward to dying as Egilll asked? The answer is simple. No one wants to die and God didn’t create us to die. Also, the belief that people who die go to heaven to live all eternity with God is not a Bible teaching.
Adam and Eve had the prospect of living forever and never dying. God told Adam and Eve at Genesis 1:28 to fill the earth and subdue it. Had they not disobeyed, they and all their descendants would have never died and over time they would have subdued the earth extending the garden of Eden until the whole planet was a paradise. So living forever and never dying is what God designed us for. This is stated at Ecclesiastes 3:11 which states “He has put eternity in their hearts.”
God didn’t tell Adam that he would reward him for his obedience by removing Adam from earth and making heaven his home. Before Adam and even the earth was created, God already had perhaps millions of spirit sons in heaven with him. This is stated at Job 38:4,7 which states: “4 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you do know understanding.”
“7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?” Since angels were serving God in heaven before the founding of the earth, the first man and woman were evidently not created to populate the heavens. Instead, God said to that first human pair at Genesis 1:28: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth.” So again, if Adam and Eve did not sin then they would have populated the earth with perfect offspring that would never have died. Adam was the first of a new and unique life form on earth that was able to know and serve God. Earth was Adam’s home not heaven. Heaven was already the home of spirit beings. Psalms 115:16 clearly states this:
“As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong, but the earth he has given to the sons of men.”
NO where in the Hebrew scriptures is going to heaven mentioned or even hinted at as a reward for the faithful. Psalms 37:29 states that “the righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.” All of the Jews looked forward to the earth being restored to a paradise. If the meek or righteous don’t inherit the earth and reside on it forever, then Psalms 37:29 will be a lie. And as everyone who has faith in God knows, it is impossible for God to lie. However, Jesus said at Matthew 5:3 that the kingdom of the heavens belongs to those conscience of their spiritual need. So what exactly did Jesus mean? Because a couple sentences later at Matthew 5:5 Jesus quotes Psalms 37:11 and states that “the mild-tempered will inherit the earth.”
Several scriptures in Luke and John can shed some light on this. After Jesus’ final meal with his apostles on the evening before his death, Jesus promised to reward them with a place in heaven. At John 14:2 he said: "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, because I am going my way to prepare a place for you."
This verse means that only after Jesus died and went back to heaven would a place be prepared for them. This is why the heavenly hope wasn’t opened up until after Jesus died and why going to heaven is not mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures. Jesus himself said at John 3:13 that no man besides himself ascended to heaven. King David who was a righteous man didn’t go to heaven. This is clearly stated at Act 2:34 where it states that David did not ascend to heaven. So according to the Bible the way to heaven was opened up only after Jesus’ death.
Why do people go to heaven? Jesus had in mind a special assignment for his disciples. During that same evening at Jesus’ final meal, he said at Luke 22:28,29: “You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.” So Jesus is saying that he is making an agreement or covenant to give his disciples a kingdom. So going to heaven to rule with Jesus as part of this kingdom is the only reason people go to heaven. Most people miss this. Most people believe that people go to heaven just to live for all eternity. This belief is not biblical. Two of Jesus’ apostles James and John understood that they were going to heaven to be part of a kingdom when they got their mother to ask Jesus at Matthew 20:20-23 if both of them could sit with him at his right and left in his kingdom. Paul too understood this when he counseled the Christians in Corinth for being high minded at 1 Corinthians 4:8. Paul asked them rhetorically if they had begun “ruling as kings.” Finally, at Revelation, the duty of the people who go to heaven is clearly stated. At Revelation 5:9, 10 it states that people are bought from every tribe and nation and they are made to be a “Kingdom and priest,” who will “rule as kings over the earth.” Revelation 20:4 states that people who are part of the first resurrection will “rule as kings with Christ” during a 1000 year period. And Revelation 20:6 states that “they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”
This kingdom that people from earth are part of is the same kingdom mentioned at Daniel 2:44 and 7:13,14 that will destroy the current kingdoms or governments and will last forever with Jesus as king. As former humans, the people who go to heaven and become spirit beings will have the privilege of being representatives of the human race as part of God’s kingdom that will rule from heaven over earth just like state representatives today represent the people of their state or district. And just like state representatives today, not everyone in the state is needed to represent their state. Only a few. The same can be said of people who go to heaven. This is why Jesus said at Matthew 22:14 that "there are many invited, but few chosen." And this is why Jesus said to his disciples at Luke 12:32 to “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” So that means a small or a relatively few number of people would be approved by God to inherit the kingdom that at Luke 22:28,29 Jesus would later explain to his disciples during his last meal with them that they would be with him in heaven as part of his kingdom.
When Jesus told his disciple the above they knew that it would be a small number but they didn’t know the exact number. That number is finally revealed at Revelation 14:1-6 where it states that 144,000 who have been bought from the earth are with Jesus in heaven with both his name and the name of his father on their foreheads. Revelation 14:6 then goes on to make a distinction from the people who are in heaven with Jesus. Verse 6 states that an angel is flying in mid heaven with everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth. So this shows that there is a small number of people with Jesus in heaven and there are people on earth. This harmonizes with the statement Jesus made at Matthew 5:3,5 and at John 10:16. During the sermon on the mount at Matthew 5:3,5 Jesus gives two hopes: the kingdom of the heavens belonging to those conscience of their spiritual need and the mild-tempered inheriting the earth. And at John 10:16 Jesus states that he as “other sheep, which are not of this fold” that he will bring along. The “this fold” is the little flock who has been given the kingdom and the “other sheep” that aren’t part of this little flock or fold are the ones who have the earthly hope and will not go to heaven.
The earth being restored to a paradise and the righteous or meek inheriting the earth and living on it forever is a promise that’s stated in the Bible and must be fulfilled. Jesus coming to earth and dying opened up the way for a “little flock” to go to heaven and rule over the earth with Jesus as kings. So according to the Bible there are two hopes: an earthly hope which most people will be part of and a heavenly hope where only a small number are chosen. Everything that I stated above is solidly based on the Bible and the Bible only. None of it is presented in a theological point of view, it is what the Bible really teaches.