T Nation

deads question


Im 17, training for last year of HS football. Im using a hybrid of westside and DeFrancos westside for skinny bastards, with 4 days (ME upper, ME lower, Reps upper, DE lower) and then using the supplemental lifts suggested by Joe. My question is this, when is the best time to deadlift?

The last 2 weeks ive only been able to ME lower for my legs. When i can do both, how should i split up squatting and deadlifting? Personally i like to squat a lot more, and being as i have to combine test for it, it may be somewhat more important to me.

So, any thoughts on the best way to split of squat/dead dynamic/heavy?


I would do deadlifts after speed box squats on DE Squat/Dead. I do about 50-60% for 6-10 singles with short rest, about 30 secs or less concentrating on speed and form. For ME Squat days you can rotate in conv and sumo deads, pin pulls from various levels, deadlifts off blocks or any other variation. The deadlift doesnt need to be trained directly a lot once form is good, because the same muscles are hit in the training for the squat.


so if i am to do deads on my DE day, how many sets of DE squats should i do before doing them?


You will want to do between 8-12 sets of 2 reps on your speed box squat, then 6-8 speed singles for deads. I think it is best to do higher sets on box, around 10, so as to get a lot of practice with form. Keep your dl around 50% for speed...every now and again work up to some heavy doubles on box after speed work. You will want about 10%-15% of your lifts above training weight to check speed meaning if you do 10x2 that is 20 lifts a week/80lifts a month *10-15%=8-12 lifts above you speed percents. Do these when you feel good. And you don't have to do all 8 in one session you can break it up over the month, but don't turn it into a max session and miss a lift...


So is it alright to do that many sets all on one day?

Say i do 10x2 for box squat, then 8x1 for dead, thats a lot or sets.

Also, should i still do supplemental lifts after the power lifts?

Also, when is the best time to switch heavy dead for heavy squat (though i want to heavy squat more)


big dirk -here is the thing..the volume for the dl wont be as high as you fell becuase you will only being 1 rep...after 2 reps on the dl your form goes to shit so that why were big belivers in pulling only singles....if i was you i would pull 6 speed singles at 60% after your dyanmic squats and then pull 2 more singles at 80% and 90%...for every 2 weeks take a week off where all you do is pull the 6 singles at 60%....bm


thanks for the advice bm...should i still do my normal supplemental work for that day after the squatting and dead work?

Also, how often should i switch heavy squat for heavy dead if ever? I would rather heavy squat, but i understand the importance of the dl


yea typical dyanmic low body work out would go ..

speed squats

speed deads

post-chain assitant work 3-4 sets of 5-12 reps

post chain assitant same

lat movement same rep scheme..

for the squat work up to a heavy single every 2 squat work outs a month....dont go over 90%...so after dynamic squats do 1 single at 75% and then one at 85%....bm


wait so when you mentioned the going heavy for squats every 2 weeks, are you talking about me ME day, or doing heavy work on my DE day?

My question about ME days, is how often should i rotate heavy squat and dead?


BM is talkin about goining heavy with box squats on DE day after speed box squats. Say if your max box squat is 400 for DE day a workout might look like this:
Speed Box Squat 60%
You can also work up to a double if you like, but dont go too heavy so that it interfers with ME day.
For squat and deadlift on ME days rarely if ever free squat and deadlift, save that for a meet or test day. You want a variaton of a goodmorning 70% of the time. You could rotate something like this:
1: Wide Stance Bent Knee Goodmorning
2: Box Squat
3: Suspended Goodmorning
4: Straight leg Goodmorning(3 rep)
5: Pin Pulls below the knee.
Various bars can be used and chains/bands can also be incorporated. Hope this helps.


"For squat and deadlift on ME days rarely if ever free squat and deadlift, save that for a meet or test day. You want a variaton of a goodmorning 70% of the time."

There is danger in quoting stuff from Dave's articles across the board. Alot of his articles assume a baseline of experience.

This statement makes a huge assumption that a lifter is technically sound.

Some lifters make a real easy transition off of the box, and some really struggle. I would state that until you figure out which one you are, some free squatting on ME day is a good idea. Particularly 8 weeks out from a competition.

I have seen too many novice lifters assume some magic transfer from a box to free without taking into account that position is everything. If your form in a free squat does not resemble your box form, you are in for a rude awakening. Just like anything, this takes practice.

As time goes by and your form gets tighter and more consistent, the statement above becomes more relevant.

Train hard.


are you sure andrew? It looks to me like he means to do the 2 heavy singles at 80 and 90% for deads.

Like this:

8 sets x 2 at 60% for box squats
6x1 60% for dead
1x1 80% dead
1x1 90% dead


Apwsearch is right..free squating needs to be done at least 5 times in a training cycle before a meet..the best ways to do this are after your speed squats suit up and free squat..or just work up doing doubles on dynamic sq day wiht no box...i began my pl carrear doing basicall 2 years straight of box squating i became so good at it that my box squat was much better than my free squat....in fact a metal pro suit was giving me absolutely nothing becuase i was so uncomfortable with out the box...lucky enough for me i can use a canvas suit wich mimics the box..but still 95% of your squating still should be done with a box.....when learning a suit i say free squat..also usapl lifters need ot do a lot more free squating becuase they walk the weights out and cant use ultra wide stance so they need much more quad strength than a wide stance squater...bm

Big Dirk..andrew is right you need to diffirent exersices on max effort day..you being a football player some of the best are..low box squats with close stance, good mornings, step ups, lunges, deadlifts off box's, sumo deadlifts, ect......for dyanmic work look at things as a 4 weeks cycle and on 2 of those weeks work up to heavy single on deadlifts and the other 2 work up to a heavy double or single on the squat.....but dont do them both on the same week..example

week 1
speed squats
speed deads + plus 2 singles

week 2
speed squats + heavy single or double
speed deads

week 3
speed squats
speed deads + plus 2 singles

weeks 4
speed squats + 2 singles
speed deads

...hope this helps...



wait so bm, are those samples just for the DE day?

Would it be something like this?

Day 1- ME squat (work up to max set of 5)
Day 2- ME bench (work up to max set of 3)
Day 3- DE legs (10 sets of 2 with 60% for squat, 6x1 at 60% for dead, then every 2 weeks 2 heavy singles for dead)
Day 4- DE upper

So would that be a good sample week? Then i would switch it to maybe my ME leg day being a dead or something?


yes that is just a example of the dynamic squat days its just one day and for every week u pull singles in the dl u dont on the squat and vice versa....I dont like ot od this but i will here is a example of a sample week..now this is just a week you have to change exersices on the max eff work each week or two and follow the dyanmic squat cyles for a pendulum wave..

day 1 max eff sq
max eff movement-walking lunges work up to a max 3
post chain assitant work - stiff leg deadlifts with dumbells 3 sets of 8 reps
post chain assitant 2- leg curls 5 sets of 10 reps
lat movement - chins 4 sets of 6-8 reps

day 2 max eff bench
max eff movement- decline bench press work up to a max 3
lat movement - lat pull downs 5 sets of 8-12
upper back work - rear delt flys 3 sets 8-12 reps

day 3 dyanmic sq dl
speed squats 8x2 50%
speed dl 6 singles @60% and 2 singles at 75% and 85%
post chain 1 - leg curls 3x33
lat work - 3 sets 8-12 reps

day 4
speed bench 12x3 @ 55%
clsoe grip incline 3 sets of 5 reps
lat movemnt- chins 3 sets of 4-6 reps
upper back work- 3 sets of 8-12 reps

now remeber u must change exersices all the time..bm


thanks for all the help bm...on a somewhat different note: why all the lat/upper back work? In the sample routine it has some form of upper back/lat work each workout day. Why is this?


ever noticed one thing about most all great football players?...huge traps my freind....upper back strenght will translate into arm and pulling strength wich is very very important to overpower weaker athletes espicially defensively...bm


thanks bm...works for me