T Nation

Deadlifts Over Squats?

[quote]snatchcleanjerk wrote:
Should I just “fucking” bench too even though I get better results from the weighted dip, even though the dip gets my bench up faster than actually benching (if there were a PL competition variation that featured chins and dips, I’d definitely train for it)?
[/quote]
Yes, you should bench also. Should doesn’t mean mandatory though. But I still think that squating is more important.

My whole deal with this is, don’t give up on an exercise just because it doesn’t benefit you as much as another replacement exercise, do both. I know you didn’t want to hear do both. But when the squat is in question regarding squat vs deadlift, just squat, you’ll still get results from squating. I’m such a strong believer of the squat benefiting for so many reasons such as athletic performance, overall body and core strength, building mass, rehabing injuries (scary thought huh?), etc. that I cringe when someone wants to disgard it in a routine.

Just fucking squat. As for bench, not as important…

If posterior tilt of the pelvis at the bottom of a squat is a problem, why don’t you work on dynamic flexibility and better technique before you go for bigger loads?

I think it seems a shame to miss out on one of the greatest strength and mass builders because you don’t think you are built for it.

If your numbers are suffering when you do both heavy, I’d say it would more likely weak periodization/ insufficient rest than anything else.

Also, L-Dizzle, I totally agree about the internal rotation thing, but remember deadlifts have a degree of scapular retraction/ external rotation that can at least partially negate the effects of excessive internal rotation.

You are right about the deadlifting, some direct rotator work is always good though.

(changed my double post, im having a bad day lol)

[quote]snatchcleanjerk wrote:
L-Dizzle wrote:
snatchcleanjerk wrote:
Now I don’t know how much knowledge you have, or if you follow the work of Robertson and Cressey, but chins strengthen the lats, which are, like front delts and pecs, internal rotators of the shoulder. What one need to do is strengthen the external rotators such as rhomboids and rear delts, through rows and similar lifts. This would help keep the shoulders back, giving a more stable base to bench off of.
You’re stronger than I am so I’m not trying to diss you, this is just what I’ve learned, tried and found out to work.

No disrespect taken at all.

I have to say though, I don’t think that adducting the humerus from in front of the body while bending over does anything much different for the various adducting muscles of the shoulder (lats, pecs, p.delts, etc) as adducting the humerus while hanging from a bar. Whether rowing or chinning, you’re just bringing elbow from in front of you to your sides. The big difference is the ROM (and here I don’t help my deadlift v. squat argument, but I think it may be a little different for the lower body). Maybe rows would give me some specific strength development that chins won’t. I do know that after years of doing no pulls aside from chins, my posterior delt is plenty developed.

As far as developing the external rotators, I always thought deadlifting would help a great deal with that. Maybe you could clear that up for me. [/quote]

I just think that when doing rows, not just bent over barbell rows, but e.g. cable rows and chest supported rows as well (face pulls and the like too), it’s easier to get the shoulders squeezed back. As with chins, I can’t get that as much. Like I said, what’s worked for me with my bench is doing more rows. I have nothing against doing chins, I think they’re a great exercise, just not something I think I myself should be doing now, from a training economy standpoint.

As with deads developing the external rotators, I agree on that. But there are muscles involved in the deadlift that take much more of the load than the external rotators do, and I think that deads don’t work the ext. rotators as much as some pressing movements work the internal rotators. There are a lot of people who have an imbalance between the two (me included), so additional external rotation work is beneficial for them/us. What do you think?

Just a sidenote, not tryin to hijack the thread, but has anyone done side presses? They seem to work the shoulder capsule as a whole better than some two handed lifts. I don’t do them or any other overhead pressing anymore, at least not a lot. It’s too easy for me to overwork my shoulders playing basketball and OH pressing simultaneously.

How is having a long torso an advantage for squatting? It seems like it would make you more prone to screwing up your back compared to someone with a shorter torso. Of course physics isn’t my strong point.

snatchcleanjerk -

Lay off the Spike. I’m exhausted just reading your posts : )

[quote]Kir Dog wrote:
snatchcleanjerk wrote:
Should I just “fucking” bench too even though I get better results from the weighted dip, even though the dip gets my bench up faster than actually benching (if there were a PL competition variation that featured chins and dips, I’d definitely train for it)?

Yes, you should bench also. Should doesn’t mean mandatory though. But I still think that squating is more important.

My whole deal with this is, don’t give up on an exercise just because it doesn’t benefit you as much as another replacement exercise, do both. I know you didn’t want to hear do both. But when the squat is in question regarding squat vs deadlift, just squat, you’ll still get results from squating. I’m such a strong believer of the squat benefiting for so many reasons such as athletic performance, overall body and core strength, building mass, rehabing injuries (scary thought huh?), etc. that I cringe when someone wants to disgard it in a routine.

Just fucking squat. As for bench, not as important…

[/quote]

Sorry Kir Dog, but you’re 5’11", right?

I’m 6’5" and also have structural difficulties to squat.
Some things I’ve learned from almost 14 years of training : deadlift is great to build traps and back, but it’s an exercice with almost NO carryover at all to other heavy lifts. I used to specialize in deads, but came to the conclusion that my squats stayed behind because my hips and glutes were too tight (deadlift doesn’t build the specific hip strenght required to squat), as well as my pull-up and rowing strenght (only exceptions: upright rows and cleans do seem to favour from heavy DL).

Despite having a well developed back after years of heavy DL, I have a hard time pulling myself up or performing rows. And don’t tell me that bullshit about deadlift building the biceps : a long limbed lifter needs CURLS (I will say even more : CHEAT CURLS!).

[quote]doogie wrote:
How is having a long torso an advantage for squatting? It seems like it would make you more prone to screwing up your back compared to someone with a shorter torso. Of course physics isn’t my strong point.[/quote]

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=739197

Hope it helps.

I don’t want to abandon squatting completely. I think I’ll just flip my priorities and deadlift twice as often as I squat. I want that 500+ dead, but I also want to squat at least 2x bodyweight.

It can be annoying having a lift you’re not very good at, but you need to remember to keep your ego out of it. If you get stuck on the bench and squat, that tells you you’ve got a weak point somewhere. If you can find and improve it, your other lifts will go up as well. For the squat, a good way to find weak points would be to do overhead squats. For the bench try doing dumbbell bench. Those should help you figure out what’s holding you back so you can work on it.

We may be related…

Structurally, I am made to sumo pull since my arms are as long as my legs and I have a very short torso where the bottom of my rib cage sits right on top of my pelvis. My deadlift has always seemed to drive my squat up, but a heavy emphasis on squatting hasn’t really seemed to help my deadlift.

Prior to a non-training related injury a couple of months ago which has still kept me sidelined, I was enjoying a cycle in which my lower body training was centered around deadlift rather than squatting. I set it up where I alternated each week between high volume dynamic effort sumo DL and a cycle of max effort or repetition effort squat or pull variations. This kept squatting in the mix, but allowed me to focus more on deadlift (i.e. some form of deadlift as my primary lower body movement 75% of the time). For regular quad work while doing all of this pulling, barbell front squats and bulgarian squats with dumbells held at my sides were favorites.

About the difficulties with posterior rotation of the pelvis at the bottom of the squat - you may want to try box squatting to limit your range to just above where you lose spinal position and then gradually progressing the depth by lowering the height of the box if you are able to keep position.

You may also want to play around with foot spacing (narrow vs. wide) and foot positioning (toes forward vs. outward) while you squat since structural variations through the lower extremities can dramatically change your ability to maintain proper spinal posture while squatting. Unless someone can assess this specifically for you, it just takes experimentation.

Also, although “absolute” flexibility may not be an issue, it could also be that you have a “relative” flexibility problem in which your spine flexes more easily than your hips while squatting. This doesn’t necessarily mean your hips or hamstrings need stretched, but that your low back extensors need strengthened.

Just my experience:

I am built much better for deadlifting than for squatting. Squatting (even ass to grass oly squatting) brings up my deadlift, but just deadlifting lets my squat plummet. And Squat=leg power.

Also, I’ve been able to bring my dead up by doing oly pulls and lifts with significantly lighter weights, whereas it seems like I need to squat heavy to be able to squat heavier.

[quote]snatchcleanjerk wrote:
doogie wrote:
How is having a long torso an advantage for squatting? It seems like it would make you more prone to screwing up your back compared to someone with a shorter torso. Of course physics isn’t my strong point.

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=739197

Hope it helps.

I don’t want to abandon squatting completely. I think I’ll just flip my priorities and deadlift twice as often as I squat. I want that 500+ dead, but I also want to squat at least 2x bodyweight.
[/quote]

Thanks. After reading that I gather it does put more stress on your lower back to have a long torso but (if your back can take it) you have the advantage of a shorter range of motion. It seems to me, though, that it would be easier to strengthen the legs than the lower back.

If the two authors didn’t both have longer legs and shorter torsos, I wonder if their conclusions would have been the same.

No power rack so I front squat and deadlift.

I love it. I don’t feel like I am missing anything anymore.

If you’re getting better results with dips and chins for strength development and gains in muscle mass, then keep doing what working for you.

seems you only need to worry about your benching or squatting if you really want to compete at a PL contest. because simply put those are the primary lifts you’re gonna have to perform.
but if your interests don’t lie in PL comps then who care if you build strength and mass doing dips instead of bpresses.

I’m not sure I understand the logic in discarding two effective lifts. If your goal is simply to be strong, then why worry about the fact that your body isn’t designed to squat or bench; do it. If you’re not a powerlifter, why focus on only the lifts that you’re good at? Yes, you can deadlift more weight, but is that important? I’m sure that squats and bench presses won’t hurt you.

[quote]Bulldawgcountry wrote:
I’m not sure I understand the logic in discarding two effective lifts. If your goal is simply to be strong, then why worry about the fact that your body isn’t designed to squat or bench; do it. If you’re not a powerlifter, why focus on only the lifts that you’re good at? Yes, you can deadlift more weight, but is that important? I’m sure that squats and bench presses won’t hurt you. [/quote]

Actually they do cut into my progress on my good lifts.

I have to apologize for bringing this up here. This is T-Nation and here I am telling asking the citizenry about programs that don’t include squat and bench. Of course you guys are going to think I’m crazy for replacing them. Those lifts are the bread and butter of all the folks here. I personally think the chin, dip and deadlift are more effective for those not ideally suited to squat and flat bench, but that logic is not going to fly here.

I think it’s crazy to bench instead of dip; I think dipping with 200 lbs attached to you is more impressive than benching 400, but I’m in the minority here. Actually, at this point it would be very trollish of me to continue with this thread. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me, however, guys.

This thread kicks ass, what the hell are you talking about?

It is an interesting thread.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
No power rack so I front squat and deadlift.

I love it. I don’t feel like I am missing anything anymore.[/quote]

As Zap mentioned, what about front squats? You’ll still get a great training effect while being forced to use a much lighter weight than with the back squat.

For me, I’m almost fully back from acl surgery, and I’m unsure if I’ll ever go back to doing heavy back squats. Think I’ll just stick to front squats for now - it sounds a whole lot safer for my knee.