I've been wanting to use them in back routines , but im not sure where i should put them at. Some people say at the end of the workout and others say at the beginning . Any thoughts? This is my back routine at the moment.
Deadlift 5 x 5(1) Barbell Row 4 x 6-8(1) DB Row 3 x 8-10(2) Lat Pull Downs 4 x 10(1) One Arm Lat Pull Down 3 x 12(1) Bent Over Rear Delts 3 x 15-18(3)
Deadlifts are mainly a lower body movement. doing deads on back day is more of a bodybuilding thing.
I believe that untill someone hit x2 BW dead there is no point in doing them last. deadlifts are great bang for the buck , why tire yourself out before you do it? unless you are on a lower/upper split where you could do some power cleans and move on to deads, start with it untill you get strong enough.
I would be cautious of doing barbell rows directly after deadlifts, great way to strain your lower back. If it doesn't bother you that's fine, but it might be a good idead to do deads one workout and bb rows the next or do deads on leg day if you feel you need to do bb rows every back workout. I like to do deadlifts at the beginning when I have the most energy. You also have some exercises that are redundant with bb rows/db rows and pulldowns/one arm pulldowns. Maybe do pulldowns with db rows one day and bbrow with one arm pulldowns the next.
edit- is there a reason you do rear delts on back day instead of shoulder day?
It comes down to priorities. For me, with a primarily BB training style, doing deadlifts at the end makes sense. If I did them first, it would weaken me on all my rowing variations, and make it harder to stay in position on yates, BB or DB rows. If you're aiming primarily to move weight on deadlift (powerlifting), then doing them first would make sense.
First for building your deadlift obviously and for back hypertrophy I would just say wherever you can fit them in your sequencing that doesn't impact your other lifts too much (eg. for me, I did rack deadlifts after pull-ups and pulldowns).
Personally I have found doing them first didn't take away from the rest of my back training, but this is mainly due to my current exercise selection. I would say if your going to be doing heavy barbell rows or perhaps t-bars it could well have an impact.
If you can still increase your poundages at a fast rate leaving it first for now might be a decent idea (in my opinion)
OP if I were you Id cut down on the amount of exercises.
vertical pull overhand grip horizontal pull vertical pull neutral close grip deadlift/rack pull rear delt stuff (reverse pec deck is best IMO, as it's very easy to let the traps take over when using dumbells)
that covers all the bases without much redundancy.
Thats the order I would do, but that isnt terribly important. I also pre-exhaust with straight arm pulldowns. I believe pre exhausting is the second most important thing to building big lats, aside from getting very strong.
If you want to add variation do it by rotating exercises in and out. If you want to make up the lost volume, do more sets.
That's a pretty smart/slick layout. i do something nearly exactly like that, i like db's for rear delts however because my traps need more work anyway. i vary the rom and movement of my bent over raises floating in and out of a row variant and a rear raise, the theory/idea is to essentially crop dust the entire upper rear area. finding the groove w/in the rom for rear delts is key, then blast away w/in that perfect zone.
i might add an extra horizontal movement as well because i generally save rack pulls for a different bonus day depending upon the cadence of my week, if i'm ahead or behind on my rotation of shit.
if i'm not 100% pleased w/ the degree to which i smoked my rear delts i hit them again w/ more isolated movements on delt day, if they're good...i allow my delt day focus to be on oh presses and side raises. front delt iso work is gauged on how my chest day went or what my plan is for chest on the upcoming week.
i wrote too much shit here, sometimes i'm explaining shit to myself just to gain better self insight.
This is a great sequence to follow op - and the advice about pre-exhausting for lats is very good. For years I did pull downs, especially narrow grip and all it did was tire out my biceps, even with the strictest of form. First day I did some straight arm pull downs using the rope quickly followed by narrow grip pulls - lats were on fire!
that may be true, but my take on bodybuilding is more power/strength oriented, starting with the heavy bang for the buck and moving on to more traditional bodybuilding movements/rep ranges . what you suggest is fine, just different perspective. volume wise you could still be bodybuilding , 7 sets of 2 on dead, then move on to pullups rows whatever.
you could even split it to 2 sessions of am deads, and pm isolation 8-12 rep stuff.. either way it keeps deads first as the main event