Deadlifting Conundrum

T3hPwnisher · November 11, 2013, 4:43pm

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:
Any opinions as to whether I should be resetting or touch and go? I’ve been resetting, not for grip issues but because it feels more “true” to the lift…[/quote]

I think you need to shift your philosophy to line up with your goals. If your goal is strength and size, you need to do what is necessary to achieve that. Some times, that may necessitate dead stops, and some times touch and go. The training is a means for meeting your goal, not an end in and of itself.

For the belt question, I love my 13mm belt, but I used a lever, not a prong.

Highlander4 · November 11, 2013, 4:58pm

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:
Any opinions as to whether I should be resetting or touch and go? I’ve been resetting, not for grip issues but because it feels more “true” to the lift…[/quote]

I think you need to shift your philosophy to line up with your goals. If your goal is strength and size, you need to do what is necessary to achieve that. Some times, that may necessitate dead stops, and some times touch and go. The training is a means for meeting your goal, not an end in and of itself.[/quote]

So what exactly isn’t lining up with my goals? It sounds like you are giving a lecture without providing any actual information.

T3hPwnisher · November 11, 2013, 5:46pm

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:
So what exactly isn’t lining up with my goals? It sounds like you are giving a lecture without providing any actual information. [/quote]

I am speaking to the idea that you are performing a movement a certain way because it is “true” to the movement rather than because it is helping you get bigger or stronger.

What actual information would you like? I’d be happy to provide as much as I can, I just found the philosophical shift to be valuable from my own experience.

AnytimeJake · November 11, 2013, 6:29pm

I just went back over the whole thread, reading T3hPwnisher replies, and I understand where he’s comming from. I have a totaly different mind set, and refuse to use any aids when I train, thats me, thats my mind set, and it works for me, because i believe in it. using tools to help over load a muscle or movement, is a way of training, many people use, and I understand it.

T3hPwnisher also happens to be one of the most knowlagable PLing posters around, enough so, that after 20yrs, I may reconsider some of my out looks on using equipment during training, based mainly on remarks he’s made on this thread. When the weight gets heavy, you have to keep an open mind, not be afraid to try new things, and find ways to over come plateaus.

This is comming from a guy who’s been lifting and coaching for 20yrs, your fairly new to the sport, so mabey if you do what I did, start at the top, and read all of T3hPwnisher’s posts in order, it becomes more clear, using equipment to allow more weight, or more reps, and thus allowing you to bust threw your unequipped plateau. i’ve never thought of things in this way.

thanks T3hPwnisher

Highlander4 · November 11, 2013, 6:33pm

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:
So what exactly isn’t lining up with my goals? It sounds like you are giving a lecture without providing any actual information. [/quote]

I am speaking to the idea that you are performing a movement a certain way because it is “true” to the movement rather than because it is helping you get bigger or stronger.

What actual information would you like? I’d be happy to provide as much as I can, I just found the philosophical shift to be valuable from my own experience. [/quote]

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk, I just didn’t understand what your point was. At 175 pounds I can get 455 up. What makes you think what I’ve been doing isn’t getting me stronger?

The information I’d like is an answer to the question I actually asked, not a criticism of the philosophical rationale I bring with me to the gym. For example, if you have any info that shows that touch and go > resetting for strength gains I’d love to read it. The other rhetoric you can keep to yourself.

flipcollar · November 11, 2013, 7:01pm

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:
So what exactly isn’t lining up with my goals? It sounds like you are giving a lecture without providing any actual information. [/quote]

I am speaking to the idea that you are performing a movement a certain way because it is “true” to the movement rather than because it is helping you get bigger or stronger.

What actual information would you like? I’d be happy to provide as much as I can, I just found the philosophical shift to be valuable from my own experience. [/quote]

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk, I just didn’t understand what your point was. At 175 pounds I can get 455 up. What makes you think what I’ve been doing isn’t getting me stronger?

The information I’d like is an answer to the question I actually asked, not a criticism of the philosophical rationale I bring with me to the gym. For example, if you have any info that shows that touch and go > resetting for strength gains I’d love to read it. The other rhetoric you can keep to yourself. [/quote]

your question centered around protecting your lower back from injury, and he said that touch and go can encourage maintaining tightness and stability in the lower back. Sounds like a pretty direct answer to your question. Did you miss this? It was the very first response in the thread…

Highlander4 · November 11, 2013, 7:46pm

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:
So what exactly isn’t lining up with my goals? It sounds like you are giving a lecture without providing any actual information. [/quote]

I am speaking to the idea that you are performing a movement a certain way because it is “true” to the movement rather than because it is helping you get bigger or stronger.

What actual information would you like? I’d be happy to provide as much as I can, I just found the philosophical shift to be valuable from my own experience. [/quote]

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk, I just didn’t understand what your point was. At 175 pounds I can get 455 up. What makes you think what I’ve been doing isn’t getting me stronger?

The information I’d like is an answer to the question I actually asked, not a criticism of the philosophical rationale I bring with me to the gym. For example, if you have any info that shows that touch and go > resetting for strength gains I’d love to read it. The other rhetoric you can keep to yourself. [/quote]

your question centered around protecting your lower back from injury, and he said that touch and go can encourage maintaining tightness and stability in the lower back. Sounds like a pretty direct answer to your question. Did you miss this? It was the very first response in the thread…[/quote]

Yes, my original question centered around protecting my back from injury. Then it evolved to changing the style of deadlift. Did YOU miss this? T3hPwnisher’s answer to the SECOND question came before I ever asked it, and before the resolution of using a belt and straps was settled on. So I was not sure the answer applied since it was given before all the information was out. Therefore, I asked for opinions (not just T3hPwnisher’s btw) about touch and go. Furthermore, although I did not specify, which I suppose was an error, I was expecting INFORMATION rather than opinion. T3hPwnisher stated “That was my experience” in his answer (the first reply you pointed out), which sounds like opinion. That is great and all, and if he doesn’t have information to give that is fine, but regardless it doesn’t excuse a substandard response that was nothing but philosophical criticism. I’m not trying to start some posting war but I created an account on this website to get good information from knowledgeable chaps. I tend to get a tad irritable when “the product” doesn’t end up to be as billed. Apologies.

jdrannin1 · November 11, 2013, 7:57pm

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:

[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:
Hello everyone, new to the forum so please be kind I have a problem with my deadlift that I’d like advice from you experts.

Background info:
I have been using a Madcow program for about 3 years now. I am still seeing gains in my lifts. My 1RM for deads is 455 and I weigh 175. I lift raw, mixed grip, once per week, and supplement with assistance exercises after. My goals are strength development, not necessarily mass or hypertrophy.

Problem:
From time to time I strain my lower back on the last rep or so of the last set of deads. 99% of the time my form is great but that 1% of the time when fatigue weakens my concentration I will tweak my back and then be out of the weight room for 2 weeks. It has happened about 4 times in the last 3 years. It is disheartening and the layoffs kill me.

Questions:

Should I switch from 5x5 to Singles? My rationale is that if I’m doing single reps my form is more likely to stay intact throughout thus eliminating injuries and missing workouts.
If I do switch to singles, will I still experience strength gains or will I just be maintaining my current strength level? My goal is to continue strength development. I’ve been considering it for awhile but I don’t have any experience with singles and am afraid to stall my strength gains.
What other suggestions do you have to remedy this problem? I know form is key but I believe I’ve identified the problem and switching to singles seems to be a possible solution, am I wrong?

Additional Info:
I love deadlifting and would never consider eliminating it unless absolutely necessary.
I prefer lifting raw. I’ve considered using a belt, but would like to avoid it if possible.
I do the appropriate warmup sets, stretching, and foam rolling.
I have long arms and legs, and a tight lower back and hamstrings.

Thanks in advance for the help everyone.
[/quote]

Are you pyramiding up in weight? Or are you doing sets across?

I agree with everyone who mentioned a belt. A belt is a good idea the stronger you get. Belts may increase your abdominal strength too. Just do your warm-ups without it. [/quote]

I pyramid as madcow calls for, ending with 1 set of 5 heavy reps.

My question about the belt is that when my form breaks down it is very slight, will the belt help with that?
[/quote]

You would have to try it and see. The belt keeps your back and core tight but your form could be breaking down because of a weakness somewhere else.

flipcollar · November 11, 2013, 8:30pm

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:
So what exactly isn’t lining up with my goals? It sounds like you are giving a lecture without providing any actual information. [/quote]

I am speaking to the idea that you are performing a movement a certain way because it is “true” to the movement rather than because it is helping you get bigger or stronger.

What actual information would you like? I’d be happy to provide as much as I can, I just found the philosophical shift to be valuable from my own experience. [/quote]

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk, I just didn’t understand what your point was. At 175 pounds I can get 455 up. What makes you think what I’ve been doing isn’t getting me stronger?

The information I’d like is an answer to the question I actually asked, not a criticism of the philosophical rationale I bring with me to the gym. For example, if you have any info that shows that touch and go > resetting for strength gains I’d love to read it. The other rhetoric you can keep to yourself. [/quote]

your question centered around protecting your lower back from injury, and he said that touch and go can encourage maintaining tightness and stability in the lower back. Sounds like a pretty direct answer to your question. Did you miss this? It was the very first response in the thread…[/quote]

Yes, my original question centered around protecting my back from injury. Then it evolved to changing the style of deadlift. Did YOU miss this? T3hPwnisher’s answer to the SECOND question came before I ever asked it, and before the resolution of using a belt and straps was settled on. So I was not sure the answer applied since it was given before all the information was out. Therefore, I asked for opinions (not just T3hPwnisher’s btw) about touch and go. Furthermore, although I did not specify, which I suppose was an error, I was expecting INFORMATION rather than opinion. T3hPwnisher stated “That was my experience” in his answer (the first reply you pointed out), which sounds like opinion. That is great and all, and if he doesn’t have information to give that is fine, but regardless it doesn’t excuse a substandard response that was nothing but philosophical criticism. I’m not trying to start some posting war but I created an account on this website to get good information from knowledgeable chaps. I tend to get a tad irritable when “the product” doesn’t end up to be as billed. Apologies.
[/quote]

You’re going to have a hard time finding anything but opinions when you start talking about back pain and heavy deadlifting, because you’re not going to find studies/scientific research on the subject. A)researchers aren’t interested in studying this, and B) the population that is performing heavy deadlifts is relatively small. You can also expect to find plenty of contradictory opinions on the subject. And since everybody has different weaknesses/strengths, the contradictions are justified. I think the overarching philosophy behind what pwnisher is saying is that you need to do what’s best for you and your goals. You won’t know how well YOU respond to touch and go, using a belt, etc, until you’ve done it. You mentioned that you’re still seeing gains, and if you’re satisfied with those gains, don’t change anything. If you believe your original question regarding back pain is significant enough that you need to make a programming/equipment change, go for it. You’re already hurting, so you know that your approach could use at least some sort of tweaking.

jdrannin1 · November 11, 2013, 8:50pm

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:
So what exactly isn’t lining up with my goals? It sounds like you are giving a lecture without providing any actual information. [/quote]

I am speaking to the idea that you are performing a movement a certain way because it is “true” to the movement rather than because it is helping you get bigger or stronger.

What actual information would you like? I’d be happy to provide as much as I can, I just found the philosophical shift to be valuable from my own experience. [/quote]

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk, I just didn’t understand what your point was. At 175 pounds I can get 455 up. What makes you think what I’ve been doing isn’t getting me stronger?

The information I’d like is an answer to the question I actually asked, not a criticism of the philosophical rationale I bring with me to the gym. For example, if you have any info that shows that touch and go > resetting for strength gains I’d love to read it. The other rhetoric you can keep to yourself. [/quote]

your question centered around protecting your lower back from injury, and he said that touch and go can encourage maintaining tightness and stability in the lower back. Sounds like a pretty direct answer to your question. Did you miss this? It was the very first response in the thread…[/quote]

Yes, my original question centered around protecting my back from injury. Then it evolved to changing the style of deadlift. Did YOU miss this? T3hPwnisher’s answer to the SECOND question came before I ever asked it, and before the resolution of using a belt and straps was settled on. So I was not sure the answer applied since it was given before all the information was out. Therefore, I asked for opinions (not just T3hPwnisher’s btw) about touch and go. Furthermore, although I did not specify, which I suppose was an error, I was expecting INFORMATION rather than opinion. T3hPwnisher stated “That was my experience” in his answer (the first reply you pointed out), which sounds like opinion. That is great and all, and if he doesn’t have information to give that is fine, but regardless it doesn’t excuse a substandard response that was nothing but philosophical criticism. I’m not trying to start some posting war but I created an account on this website to get good information from knowledgeable chaps. I tend to get a tad irritable when “the product” doesn’t end up to be as billed. Apologies.
[/quote]

You’re going to have a hard time finding anything but opinions when you start talking about back pain and heavy deadlifting, because you’re not going to find studies/scientific research on the subject. A)researchers aren’t interested in studying this, and B) the population that is performing heavy deadlifts is relatively small. You can also expect to find plenty of contradictory opinions on the subject. And since everybody has different weaknesses/strengths, the contradictions are justified. I think the overarching philosophy behind what pwnisher is saying is that you need to do what’s best for you and your goals. You won’t know how well YOU respond to touch and go, using a belt, etc, until you’ve done it. You mentioned that you’re still seeing gains, and if you’re satisfied with those gains, don’t change anything. If you believe your original question regarding back pain is significant enough that you need to make a programming/equipment change, go for it. You’re already hurting, so you know that your approach could use at least some sort of tweaking.[/quote]

Good post.

In my opinion, I believe re-setting to be safer and more helpful to prevent an injury but I see most people don’t do it and they’re fine. I think experimentation is your next resort.

You could also take a video of yourself deadlifting. It’s very common for a breakdown in your form to happen on your last rep or two. Maybe you’ll find yourself developing bad habits as you fatigue. We all have them. For example, some people won’t keep the bar close to their legs and this causes a slight rounding making you susceptible to an injury. Good luck.

Mad_Martigan · November 11, 2013, 9:15pm

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Highlander4 wrote:
So what exactly isn’t lining up with my goals? It sounds like you are giving a lecture without providing any actual information. [/quote]

I am speaking to the idea that you are performing a movement a certain way because it is “true” to the movement rather than because it is helping you get bigger or stronger.

What actual information would you like? I’d be happy to provide as much as I can, I just found the philosophical shift to be valuable from my own experience. [/quote]

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk, I just didn’t understand what your point was. At 175 pounds I can get 455 up. What makes you think what I’ve been doing isn’t getting me stronger?

The information I’d like is an answer to the question I actually asked, not a criticism of the philosophical rationale I bring with me to the gym. For example, if you have any info that shows that touch and go > resetting for strength gains I’d love to read it. The other rhetoric you can keep to yourself. [/quote]

your question centered around protecting your lower back from injury, and he said that touch and go can encourage maintaining tightness and stability in the lower back. Sounds like a pretty direct answer to your question. Did you miss this? It was the very first response in the thread…[/quote]

Yes, my original question centered around protecting my back from injury. Then it evolved to changing the style of deadlift. Did YOU miss this? T3hPwnisher’s answer to the SECOND question came before I ever asked it, and before the resolution of using a belt and straps was settled on. So I was not sure the answer applied since it was given before all the information was out. Therefore, I asked for opinions (not just T3hPwnisher’s btw) about touch and go. Furthermore, although I did not specify, which I suppose was an error, I was expecting INFORMATION rather than opinion. T3hPwnisher stated “That was my experience” in his answer (the first reply you pointed out), which sounds like opinion. That is great and all, and if he doesn’t have information to give that is fine, but regardless it doesn’t excuse a substandard response that was nothing but philosophical criticism. I’m not trying to start some posting war but I created an account on this website to get good information from knowledgeable chaps. I tend to get a tad irritable when “the product” doesn’t end up to be as billed. Apologies.
[/quote]

You signed up for a free forum in which literally anyone with an internet connection can respond. You didn’t purchase a “product.” You aren’t entitled to anything. You should consider yourself lucky that anyone even bothered to respond at all, let alone someone as knowledgeable as Th3Pwnsher.

You don’t like his suggestion? Well shit, I guess you get what you pay for. Free advice brought to your doorstep on demand just isn’t what it used to be, I guess. He doesn’t have to explain anything to you, or find studies for you, or prove his theories to you. He offered a helpful suggestion (to his mind, anyway) at your behest, and you are shitting all over it because it’s not up to your standards. Go somewhere else with your nonsense.

Better yet, go tweak your back again by deadlifting with your superior style, and when the EMT is carting your ass out the door, ask him how he feels about touch-and-go. You’ll get a nifty bill a few weeks later, and you can feel like you got your money’s worth.

anon50325502 · November 11, 2013, 9:39pm

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote: