As far as training technique with disregard to other qualities, I’ve found nothing works better than double paused deadlifts.
You could try alternating between those and heavy(ish) deadlifts. You could also do heavy work based on a technical max rather than the most you can stand up with.
And in my experience and reading, the first pull of a powerclean is very different from the start of a deadlift. The first pull in a power clean will build a little momentum, but is mostly positioned to be able to get the strongest 2nd pull possible.
To understand fully look at the difference between a clean deadlift and a regular conventional deadlift.
Well, a hitched deadlift with straps doesn’t count for much anyway, so what’s the difference?
A 2 board press is still a bench press and a 7 mat pull is still a deadlift, but it’s with reduced ROM so it’s not the same thing as the actual competition lift. I wouldn’t consider that to be not benching/deadlifting, but nobody is going to give a fuck about your PRs either.
On this I have to significantly disagree. One is a 2 board press and one is a mat pull. Otherwise, we run into the interesting bit of sophisim wherein a bench press is simply an overhead press laying down and a curl is just a squat done with the arms in a single joint isolation.
I will certainly agree with you that a 2 board press is a bench press variation, but it is not the bench press.
I will say it is fascinating that you don’t believe a strapped and hitched deadlift from the floor is a deadlift, but you do believe a reduced ROM pull IS a deadlift. I don’t understand the logic myself.
I don’t really care if you use straps or hitch your deadlifts, it’s acceptable in strongman so you would be stupid not to do so. It just can’t be compared pound for pound with a deadlift that would pass in PL.
It’s not an actual competition deadlift, but neither is a deficit deadlift or deadlift with bands or chains. Saying that you didn’t do the actual competition lift is one thing but to say you didn’t deadlift doesn’t sound right.
Lots of people have built their squat by not squatting, they only squat low bar in meet prep. Does that make sense?
Exactly. What I did was not a deadlift, but was instead heavy partials.
It does if the way they were building their squat outside of the meet wasn’t squatting. If someone said they only squatted in competition and then later I found out they were doing goblet squats, I wouldn’t go “AH HAH I GOT YOU NOW YOU BASTARD”. I’d agree with them; they weren’t doing squats.
I am still kinda curious what the deadlift with straps and hitching thing had to do with anything though. I feel like I’m missing something.
You could, I suppose, but it would be real stupid, because I do.
Here is me at 181lbs pulling 601 in a powerlifting meet using the above method
And before people jump to silly conclusions, no, straps and hitching don’t add 50lbs to the lift; this was just a meet I did on the way to the 650 pull.
Westside if famously a program without deadlifts. That was one of their reputations. Although, these days, I believe speed deadlifts are performed on the dynamic day.
I can’t speak to Cube. I’ve never run it.
No; of course not. But I rarely deadlift. That has been the point of the discussion.
Chris, no joke; are you asking me questions because you are genuinely interested in my training method, or are you hoping to “trap me” into some sort of verbal corner? If it’s the latter, let’s just agree to disagree and move on.
Nowadays they do speed deadlifts just about every week and ME deadlifts 1/4 of ME days or something like that, it’s still significantly less than squats and maybe less than GMs but they do deadlift. Read Louie’s article " DON’T DEADLIFT", it’s all about deadlifting but not off the floor with straight weight. I have never done a cube cycle myself but as far as I have seen there are no regular deadlifts from the floor, the program is somewhat based upon Westside.
I’m not trying to trap you into anything, I’m just joking around. I know you like to laugh at people who pull sumo and you are trying to argue that partial ROM pulls are not actual deadlifts, so by that logic you could say that strongman-style deadlifts aren’t deadlifts either.
It sounds like Louie and I agree on the idea here.
You may have me confused for someone else. I don’t laugh at people that pull sumo. I have laughed at the idea of ME pulling sumo, which may be what you are confused with.
Sure. Again, I don’t understand the significance of that.
I’ve recently Incorporated double paused pulls. My biggest weakness in the pull is off the floor, due to what I think is weak abdominals in that static starting position. It’s still too early to tell, as I’ve just started using them, but have you experienced any carryover in that sense?
I’ve ran the cube for about 4 cycles as written and, then my own variation for about another 6. As written in the OG and Kingpin, you do pull from the floor as the first lift of the day. Can’t quite remember supplemental/assistance for the OG, but Kingpin has you pull from blocks at a higher intensity afterwards and a deficit at a lower intensity.
It hard to understand something you haven’t tired or been exposed to. When presented with something you are not familiar with, the initial reaction is to question it. I do that, as well. It is something you should do.
The issue for most is they never try something like this and experiment with it to find out. It impossible to know if something will or won’t work until you experiment with it.
Still Deadlifting
I agree under the following conditions.
Deadlift Technique Training ONLY: Training the Deadlift for multiple sets of singles with load or 85% of 1 Repetition Max.
Auxiliary Exercises: Employing Auxiliary Exercise with a similar movement pattern to build strength for the muscle involved in the Deadlift.
If I were to revise the “No Deadlift Training” article, those are two of the revision that I would make.
Maybe, Maybe Not
You understanding to speculation. It may or may be right.
Not Off The Floor Deadlifts
This is a hybrid version of not performing the Deadlift that works.
In the “No Deadlift” article, I noted this method…
“Betzer added 40 pounds to his deadlift in five months by breaking down his deadlift training into three areas:the blast-off, the knee area and the mid-thigh area. For the blast-off, Betzer found working the squat to be the best exercise. For the knee area, Betzer’s exercise of choice was, again, good mornings. And finally, for the mid-thigh area, Betzer selected deadlifts off 6-inch blocks. Block deadlifts are essentially the same as rack deadlifts”
Power Work
Actually, the use of load with 50 - 60% with Deadlifts (Traditional Strength Movements) is Power Training, not Speed Training. Speed Training is developed with loads of 10 - 40% of 1 Repetition Max.
Conjugate Training
Yes, incorporating Power Training with Strength Training provide a synergistic effect. The sum is greater that it parts; metaphorically speaking, 2 + 2 = 5
Technique Deadlift Training
Yes, I agree to some extent. As I stated above in other post, Technique in the Deadlift needs to be trained.
Olympic Pulls Vs Speed/Power Deadlifts
As noted in the “No Deadlift” article, Power Output is up to 4 time greater than the Deadlift. Even when the training load is dropped in the Deadlift, the Deadlift never come close to eliciting the Power Output of and Olympic Pull.
While the Speed/Power Deadlift does increase power, it come close to matching the Power Output that can be developed with Olympic Pulls.
Other Speed/Power Training Movements
Trap Bar Deadlifts: Research shows when the right training percentages are employed, the Speed/Power Trap Bar Deadlift the Power Output development of Olympic Movemetns.
Heavy Kettlebell Swings: Heavy meaning using load of near body weight. If you weight 200 lbs, you Kettlebell Swing need to be performed with around 200 lbs.
Example That It Works
Great information that a “No Deadlift Program” works. I’d be interesting in learning more about what their training program was.
Will It Work For Others?
Yes, it will work for individual who are not familiar with Olympic Pulls.
It’s not just my speculation, Dave Tate and Matt Wenning have spoken about it. I don’t know how much or how little actual deadlifting was done, but it was significantly less than what they do now, which isn’t much. I’m not the only one with this impression:
What are you saying here:
So you would do actual deadlifts?
re:Josh Gilbert/John Broz:
The program that Josh Gilbert used to set a federation record in powerlifting involved maxing out daily on some combination of the squat, front squat, snatch, clean & jerk, power snatch, and power clean, plus down sets. Not sure how or if he benched at all before the meet, but his bench was nothing impressive. Anyway, you can possibly build strength in the deadlift by only squatting heavy and performing similar movements but the way that this guy did it is totally inefficient because the workload necessary to achieve those results would have been significantly less if he had trained specifically for PL. And take the example of Max Aita, who was trained by Ivan Abadjiev. He was initially able to front squat more than he could deadlift when he started training for PL.
