T Nation

Deadlift More by Not Deadlifting?

Which is why I am learning from Westside Barbell and Louie Simmons rather than experimenting with a method that very few people have had success with. And I encourage others to learn from Louie Simmons as well. Even Kenny, who has used the method, still recommends deadlifting for singles with 85%.

Regarding frequency, have you ever tried squatting and benching 6 days a week? If not, then by your logic you are not qualified to speak on the topic. I never said that everyone should squat and bench at least twice a week, I said that the majority of people should do so. Don’t you weigh over 300 lbs? That advice wouldn’t apply to you. And you still don’t appear to understand what I’m saying.

So if you wanted to increase frequency you would do 3-4 sets of 3, 3 times a week, 5 sets of 3 twice a week, or 2-3 sets of 5 twice a week. It’s that simple. If you don’t like it or you don’t think it will work for you then feel free to do something else. Most people who can’t handle benching twice a week are benching over 500, are you one of them?

Instead of arguing with me, why don’t you respond to @oldbeancam:

All we can and are doing here on this forum is offer perspectives from our own personal experience with ourselves or people that some of us may have personally trained or trained with. Without that experience, it is impossible to offer an accurate assessment. To answer your question, no, but I have tried squatting and benching 3 times a week and that was too much, as well as twice a week, so I dare not even try 6 times a week. Reading all the literature out here today, you would think my technique would fall to shit, my strength would drop and I would wither away only squatting and pulling twice a month. I put very little stock into what is written or studies. I still find it interesting and if I find it that interesting I will experiment with it for myself.

I’ve done something similar with dup. Like you said before, it is time consuming and a pain in the ass. It also, doesn’t fit my personality. And no, I wish.

I’m not really arguing, just trying to offer perspective from my experience and I see 20 rep squats and daily squatting as short term challenges, rather than a long term. Sure, if I had an endurance event I had to prepare for I would sway towards that spectrum of training for special strengths, but im not and we’re in the powerlifting forum. As for Smolov, I know very little about it, so I don’t know.

Y’all done arguing yet lel?

Reminds me of a thread that was titled “When are you qualified to give advice” or something like that.

Between personal/practical experience and controlled scientific research where does expert advice fall?

When we offer “Louie Simmons says this or Boris Sheiko does that” is that kind of like a middle ground?

These experts have a track record of proven success, their methods sometimes going against the norm and sometimes setting it. Both have extensive practical experience yet draw heavily from the decades of research since the inception of sports performance as a science.

They’ve surely tried out a lot of stuff between them and discarded what is ineffective. I find it hard to believe they have not once come across training ideas/methods that they discarded with no hesitation without even trying it. They knew enough and took the time to apply that knowledge hypothetically to potential strategies and concluded that they would be less effective then what they were currently running.

I think it’s not so much loss of gains but loss of potential gains or rate of gains nomsayin that have people trying to find the very best way to train, resulting in a clusterfuck of info. The adage goes “if it aint broke don’t fix it”. Some people postface this with “If it’s not perfect it may as well be broken.”

Frankly for something little like a 10-20% difference it may not be worth the headache/effort. Tho if you train for years/decades a 10-20% difference in rate of gains may mean getting to any given point a year or more faster. Looking at it the other way around potentially wasting a year of your life sounds pretty unappealing.

Here you go. % are of true 1RM. From powerliftingtowin’s Smolov Review:




What do you think?

1 Like

Agree with this 100%. And paralysis by analysis. At some point you just have to follow your instinct. Instinct comes from experience. Otherwise, all we can do is speculate or hopefully draw on others that have been down that road. Speaking of Westside, have you read article on elite f t s “The One-Drop Method”?

Lel…um that wasn’t exactly what I was on about tho

Point was that with reasonable accuracy you can and probably should look at something and determine it’s likely effectiveness through the scope of the principles of strength training e.g. specificity, overload, fatigue management etc. Instinct has less to do with the analysis.

Take Smolov above for example: High weekly volume often at high percentages generates loads of fatigue. Even following the recommendations that one should not deadlift at all and be in a caloric surplus during Smolov it’ll beat most people into the ground leading to high burnout/dropout rate and increased incidence of injury. If you survive you’ll almost certainly be hitting PRs tho

These were my thoughts before doing Smolov.

It was hard/fun and PRed 40lbs easy by the end of it but got cranky quadriceps tendonitis too (went away after a few weeks when I returned to more reasonable training). I didn’t drop out although to be fair I did not do all of the prescribed volume (most tho. I aint no lil bitch) but I could definitely see the program being inappropriate for most lifters many of who’d end up dropping out.

My “before” thoughts and “after” experiences were more or less aligned which was not surprising because I had a good hard think before doing the program.

I’m one of those who tends to over analyse things probably because I actually enjoy it and the process. I’ve learnt, drawn ideas and inspiration from so many sources that it’d be hard to list them all.

For most people or in general I’d recommend a more healthy balance than my own between doing what works/has worked for you/others personally and keeping open minded lest an opportunity to enhance your training comes around.

Not really, it would just take longer to learn proper technique.

So the opinions of coaches who have trained multiple world champions mean little compared to those of our training partners? I have to disagree.

For some reason I remembered there being 10x3x90%, but instead it’s 5x5x90 and 4x3/4x3x95% which is even worse. 90% is a max effort triple for me.

Would not be surprised if typo … but then again the whole program has built up to that point, volume/work capacity & intensity so likely that true 1RM increases during the program. The 5x5 is at 90% of your previous/original/starting 1RM going in so is actually a lower % of tru 1RM by the time you get to it nomsayin?

Where did you get that from anything I wrote?

Do you mind if I ask how old you are? Are you being trained by these world championship coaches? And do you not notice the contrast of opinion on methodology out there? Anyways, I’m done with wasting time on this conversation. I’m off to read more articles, so I can tell people with actual experience that they are wrong and know jack shit.

Because you said:

So how come I can’t quote Louie Simmons? They did close to no deadlifting at Westside for a while and it didn’t work, now they do speed pulls every week and ME deadlifts on a regular basis.

34

no

Yes, there are different ways to train but at the moment everyone who has an impressive deadlift still trains the deadlift and there are no coaches that I am aware of advocating otherwise. Bill Starr preferred power cleans and such, but he’s dead. Even Rippetoe, who got a lot of his methods from Starr, still has people deadlift although he includes power cleans in some programs.

There has been talk of mat/block/rack pulls in this thread but has anyone tried limited ROM from the floor (to the knees for example)?

I knew someone that used that with success but would love to hear more war stories (success or failure).

Have actually heard “Deadlift to the Knees” brought up quite a bit in the context of Sheiko programs. On paper/in principle it seems solid enough especially for conventional DL and it’s hard to argue against Sheiko tho personal experience wise can’t say: Unfortunately I can’t help but think of Samson Fletcher whenever it’s mentioned so I aint going anywhere near it.

I haven’t tried that, but I know that Sheiko uses deadlifts to the knees.

Fine, then how many times would you squat per week?

Depends on the training cycle.