T Nation

DC Training vs Volume for Hypertrophy

Hi everyone. What do you think about Doggcrapp training? How does it compare to traditional bodybuilding higher volume approach?

The program utilises Rest-pause, Heavy Weight, less volume but higher frequency.


Please search. The fact that you’re asking probably tells me you’re not ready for DC. DC works well, but you’ll probably wont get the desired results out of it. Hell it might work, but I’m pretty sure a normal BB approach will work just as well for you, if not better…

It’s doggcrapp…

It’s great for packing on size ASAP

[quote]7asssa7 wrote:
Hi everyone. What do you think about Doggcrapp training? How does it compare to traditional bodybuilding higher volume approach?

The program utilises Rest-pause, Heavy Weight, less volume but higher frequency.

[/quote]

What are you doing now?

What are your numbers in the squat, deadlift, bench, and overhead press, or any other mainstay lifts of yours if you don’t do those (eg, incline press, stiff legged deadlifts, bent over rows)?

There pros and cons to DC.

Pro

  1. It adds size.

Con

  1. I’ve never been able to grasp how one can bring up a lagging muscle group in the tight confines of this system. Sure, Dante says you should focus on compound exercise suitable to your structure, but I’ve not seen one DC layout that includes isolation exercises for large muscle groups. This can lead to a muscular, yet asymmetrical physique. (Anyone can correct me if I’m wrong).

  2. This is more of a criticism of Dante rather than the format of training. According to him, if you make the most minor changes in the program, it is no longer DC. I’ve literally seen people say, if you were to put biceps on Day A instead of Day B, then it’s no longer DC training!!! (Correct me if I have this wrong.)

  3. Focusing on adding weight all the time, while ignoring what higher volume, less intensive training can do, can only last for so long.

  4. The suggested 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight is a bit much!

doesn’t Dante also say that you should have built 3lbs/inch of height before starting DC?

Its great for overall mass but can leave arms lagging. I believe Dante currently has Cedric Macmillan doing extra sets for the gunz.

I’m beginning to realize that, as much as we all want there to be some magical set-in-stone routine for gaining size, it all just comes down to putting tension on the muscle for some period of time and then providing nutrition to allow adaptation…

There are tons of studies as well as anecdotes which say that x,y and z method leads to the most protein synthesis/hypertrophy, and they’re all probably right! There are too many factors to account for to say that ‘this’ is the only way you should train and ‘this’ is how many reps/sets you should do - no more and no less.

The common theme is that you need to stress (in some way) the targeted muscle group (for some period of time) and repeat as frequently as your body allows and according to your priorities based on perceived weaknesses. This is why I like someone such as John Meadows who borrows what works from each camp and uses it when necessary.

DC style training is great if you happen to be pressed for time or you just enjoy training that way (you’ll be more consistent if you enjoy it) but it isn’t magic. Sorry if I’m preaching to the choir here but I just figured I would share how my mindset used to be towards training programs so that others might change theirs.

I’ve always wished someone would make a like ‘beginner/intermediate’ style DC routine. The methods (hitting things frequently, using rest-pause sets) and philosophies of just using big movements , hitting every BP, and adding weight to the bar, are perfect for a trainer early in his career, who just needs to put on mass and get strong. But sadly it’s an ‘advanced’ routine lol

Someone think of DC-light, call it Catshitt or something lol

DC is a really complicated program. Exercise choices and progression, ect. aren?t simple.

You have to really know what you are doing and be very diligent in planning, sticking to the plan, and recording everything.

It is pretty fun though.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]7asssa7 wrote:
Hi everyone. What do you think about Doggcrapp training? How does it compare to traditional bodybuilding higher volume approach?

The program utilises Rest-pause, Heavy Weight, less volume but higher frequency.

[/quote]

What are you doing now?

What are your numbers in the squat, deadlift, bench, and overhead press, or any other mainstay lifts of yours if you don’t do those (eg, incline press, stiff legged deadlifts, bent over rows)?

There pros and cons to DC.

Pro

  1. It adds size.

Con

  1. I’ve never been able to grasp how one can bring up a lagging muscle group in the tight confines of this system. Sure, Dante says you should focus on compound exercise suitable to your structure, but I’ve not seen one DC layout that includes isolation exercises for large muscle groups. This can lead to a muscular, yet asymmetrical physique. (Anyone can correct me if I’m wrong).

  2. This is more of a criticism of Dante rather than the format of training. According to him, if you make the most minor changes in the program, it is no longer DC. I’ve literally seen people say, if you were to put biceps on Day A instead of Day B, then it’s no longer DC training!!! (Correct me if I have this wrong.)

  3. Focusing on adding weight all the time, while ignoring what higher volume, less intensive training can do, can only last for so long.

  4. The suggested 2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight is a bit much! [/quote]

  5. Do widowmakers for lagging bodyparts and use exercises that would hit that bodypart while doing them for another one. So if lagging chest then do cgbp instead of tri extensions. That’s what he says regarding that

2)Yep, he pretty much says that

3)True, and could lead to injury veryyy quickly if you’re not careful and try to push for that extra rep when you don’t have it inyou

  1. I read the entire Cycles for Pennies thread that’s where he originally got “famous” and he repeatedly said he’d exagerate things so people would do less than what he recommended but still do well. Although I don’t remember if this is the case with his protein recommendations

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I’ve always wished someone would make a like ‘beginner/intermediate’ style DC routine. The methods (hitting things frequently, using rest-pause sets) and philosophies of just using big movements , hitting every BP, and adding weight to the bar, are perfect for a trainer early in his career, who just needs to put on mass and get strong. But sadly it’s an ‘advanced’ routine lol

Someone think of DC-light, call it Catshitt or something lol[/quote]

I’ve actually created a routine i like to call DC Jr. The split is the same as DC:

A: Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, Back Width, Back Thickness
B: Biceps, Forearms, Calves, Hamstrings, Quads

and the days per week is the same: M W F or T Th S or whatever

The only difference is that it’s a double rotation instead of triple, and no exercise is rest-paused. Just one all out set which you try to beat next time the exercise comes.

An example would be:

A1: Bench Press, Military Press, Close Grip Decline Press, Chin Up, Rack Pull
B1: Alt. Dumbbell Curl, Preacher Hammer Curl, Standing Calves, Lying Leg Curl, Back Squat
A2: Incline Dummbbell Press, SHIP, PJR Extensions, Rack Chins, T Bar Row
B2: Incline Dumbbell Curl, Alt. Hammer Curl or Pinwheels, Seated Calves, RDL, Legpress

Week 1: A1 B1 A2
Week 2: B2 A1 B1
Week 3: A2 B2 A1
and so on…

The benefits of this vs DC for a beginner/ intermediate is that each exercise is repeated more often while still keeping the same frequency as DC. I also feel that a beginner wouldn’t need rest-pause as they could make good progress on just one all out set, and also because i’ve noticed that beginners generally treat rest-pause as three seperate sets and thus don’t push themselves hard enough on the first set.

Try it out, you might like it.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I’ve always wished someone would make a like ‘beginner/intermediate’ style DC routine. The methods (hitting things frequently, using rest-pause sets) and philosophies of just using big movements , hitting every BP, and adding weight to the bar, are perfect for a trainer early in his career, who just needs to put on mass and get strong. But sadly it’s an ‘advanced’ routine lol

Someone think of DC-light, call it Catshitt or something lol[/quote]

fwiw I think anyone that played any sport with great intensity can do DC at any point lol

Hey guys ready for this…?

I used DC for two years when I was 172 lbs and went up to as high as a fat 215 iirc. I ended up 190lbs lean

I switched to something else about a year ago

true story

Guys there is an awful lot of people missing the point…

DC works and will work for anyone who has the ‘want’ to push hard on a consistant basis. Isn’t that what we are supposed to do?

It is a no BS approach to overloading the muscle

Dante has put a lot of time and effort in telling you how to train. Do it as opposed to question it.

Keep it real until you are pushing the weights that are considered heavy. Then ask yourself if DC training creates lagging arms

People immediately do what is not required i.e. move onto the 3 way split and then start adding widowmakers to every body part. You don’t need this until later or if at all…

Just remember to do your deloading, cardio and stretches…

^ And to know you will have some imbalances to fix afterward. srs here

[quote]zraw wrote:
^ And to know you will have some imbalances to fix afterward. srs here[/quote]

Maybe, but how many people reach that point?

It doesn’t matter how you train you always have something that lags or that requires additional work. Although you can never ever really change your make-up.

Looking at the basics of DC, you can structure the big lifts in such a manner to give certain parts more of a hammering.

EG. if you were to use slight decline press for chest, standing overhead press and an over-head dumbell extension with the intensity that is supposed to be used; then your triceps get some kicking on 3 occasions every 2-weeks. Dante recomends rotating 3 different exercices for each body part within every Drive cycle; although this doesn’t necessairly mean you need completely different movements. Slight angle changes is enough to allow you to lengthen the overloading period of each movement.

Personally I trained DC with less exercises per workout, but there again I may be lucky enough not to not need any direct work for arms.

I don’t do DC anymore, certainly not because it doesn’t work, I do 5/3/1 twice a week and work harder on my conditining and fitness but would support DC for those interested in BB. Jim Wendler has just released a 6-week challenge on this site that combines 5/3/1 and DC style training which looks interesting for anyone who wants growth. Again Jim is a no BS guy who tells you how it is…

[quote]deadliftgoal500 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I’ve always wished someone would make a like ‘beginner/intermediate’ style DC routine. The methods (hitting things frequently, using rest-pause sets) and philosophies of just using big movements , hitting every BP, and adding weight to the bar, are perfect for a trainer early in his career, who just needs to put on mass and get strong. But sadly it’s an ‘advanced’ routine lol

Someone think of DC-light, call it Catshitt or something lol[/quote]

I’ve actually created a routine i like to call DC Jr. The split is the same as DC:

A: Chest, Shoulders, Triceps, Back Width, Back Thickness
B: Biceps, Forearms, Calves, Hamstrings, Quads

and the days per week is the same: M W F or T Th S or whatever

The only difference is that it’s a double rotation instead of triple, and no exercise is rest-paused. Just one all out set which you try to beat next time the exercise comes.

An example would be:

A1: Bench Press, Military Press, Close Grip Decline Press, Chin Up, Rack Pull
B1: Alt. Dumbbell Curl, Preacher Hammer Curl, Standing Calves, Lying Leg Curl, Back Squat
A2: Incline Dummbbell Press, SHIP, PJR Extensions, Rack Chins, T Bar Row
B2: Incline Dumbbell Curl, Alt. Hammer Curl or Pinwheels, Seated Calves, RDL, Legpress

Week 1: A1 B1 A2
Week 2: B2 A1 B1
Week 3: A2 B2 A1
and so on…

The benefits of this vs DC for a beginner/ intermediate is that each exercise is repeated more often while still keeping the same frequency as DC. I also feel that a beginner wouldn’t need rest-pause as they could make good progress on just one all out set, and also because i’ve noticed that beginners generally treat rest-pause as three seperate sets and thus don’t push themselves hard enough on the first set.

Try it out, you might like it.

[/quote]
Thats a good approach, but don’t forget the reason rest pause was introduced was as Dante believed there was a certain amount of intensity required when training low volume that one all out set couldn’t offer. I certainly don’t think beginners would be able to drive the intensity into one set without some sort of extension. If you can reach positive failure, you can count 15 breaths go again and count 15 breaths and go again.

What you have kindly presented far from generates the intensity that DC recomends for those body parts that DC state to keep within the 15-30 rep range (inclusive of 3 rp sets)

look at biceps for example. Most Trainers keep rest to about 45 - 60 seconds between sets. a DC rp set isn’t that different as it is more like 3 sets with 20 - 30 seconds between. You just don’t go for additional exercises becuase??? you should have done enough and will revisit again in 4 - 5 days with a slightle different curl…

Try it… BTW, I agree with not using 3 x different movements when a beginner, I always think an exercise needs a degree of work/practice before you become efficient enough to milk it. I would go as far as not rotating the movements for 6-months worth of cycles.

[quote]PMurph wrote:

[quote]zraw wrote:
^ And to know you will have some imbalances to fix afterward. srs here[/quote]

Maybe, but how many people reach that point?

It doesn’t matter how you train you always have something that lags or that requires additional work. Although you can never ever really change your make-up.

Looking at the basics of DC, you can structure the big lifts in such a manner to give certain parts more of a hammering.

EG. if you were to use slight decline press for chest, standing overhead press and an over-head dumbell extension with the intensity that is supposed to be used; then your triceps get some kicking on 3 occasions every 2-weeks. Dante recomends rotating 3 different exercices for each body part within every Drive cycle; although this doesn’t necessairly mean you need completely different movements. Slight angle changes is enough to allow you to lengthen the overloading period of each movement.

Personally I trained DC with less exercises per workout, but there again I may be lucky enough not to not need any direct work for arms.

I don’t do DC anymore, certainly not because it doesn’t work, I do 5/3/1 twice a week and work harder on my conditining and fitness but would support DC for those interested in BB. Jim Wendler has just released a 6-week challenge on this site that combines 5/3/1 and DC style training which looks interesting for anyone who wants growth. Again Jim is a no BS guy who tells you how it is…[/quote]

ive DCed for a bit over 2years…

To think muscles such as triceps and delts or even back as a “whole” is where the problem arise.

No your triceps will not develop evenly, at all, from big presses and no direct work of the lateral head

No your side and rear delts wont develop much from rowing

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
doesn’t Dante also say that you should have built 3lbs/inch of height before starting DC?[/quote]

Yeah, that, and a good strength norm for advanced guys is 455 incline benches.