T Nation



38 yrs old
5’8 180lbs no more than 10 of that unwanted

would a beginning cycle of dbol and winstrol of say 3 weeks at 20mg and 50mg respectively be ok followed by 3 weeks with anavar 20mg and winstrol 50 mg

or would anadrol be a better short term use than dbol??

during the dbol or anadrol use i would also cycle nolva and proviron.

my question is how long should these cycles run ie 4,6 or, 8 weeks

or should i say F the dbol adrol and, just go with anavar and, winstrol??

I would like to make 10 to 15 pounds of gains which is why I thought short stacks of dbol/anadrol could be followed with the second stack to keep the gains solid.

NO I do not prefer to use injectables

thank you for your time

Theres a few problems i can see with what you have set up here. Firstly, straight oral cycles are not well suited to mass building. If you take a pantload of a-bombs, yes you will get the size that you want, but that will be a huge ammount water. Dbol is very much the same. Both compounds retain a lot of water and thus the gains you make using these drugs exclusively are largely fleeting. Both dbol and androl are not suited for short alternating cycles because of the high rate of aromitization, thus causing negative feedback via the estrogen receptor and therefore suppression of your own test production. Using nolvadex will counter this, but if you plan on alternating for a long period, this drug can be hard on the system.

Anavar and winstrol is a sensible oral-only stack. You would want 75-100mg/daily of oral winstrol and 20+mg daily of anavar. This type of cycle can be used effectively for alternating 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. Neither drugs aromatize, thus eliminating the need for nolvadex. If you were to run this cycle conventionally, i would stay under 8 weeks due to liver toxicity issues, and administer proviron or hcg therapy to maintain sexual function.

I would reiterate however that 10-15 lbs of retained gain will be difficult on an oral only cycle. These drugs either work slowly and are for mild anabolic effect (as in the anavar/winstrol) or put you on a water retention rollercoaster (as does dbol and anodrol) A far more effective way to make the gains you seek in much less time would be to add in an injectible of some form. Depot testosterone stacks well with any of the drugs you’ve mentioned and should be considered as an option. You will end up investing much less in gear in the long run if you can take a couple needles a week. Injectibles are simply more effective.

Can I ask why no injectables?
The results you would obtain would be far superior not too mention safer than using orals only. Is it can’t do or won’t do thing?

hey creed

I say no injectables because I have 2 young boys in the house so, I feel having needles on hand in the house ranks right up there with having guns in the house.

having said that I have read all about the toxicity issues and, I thought the shorter cycles would alleviate that issue.

I also definately don’t want the bloating…I want to keep my gains and, I want them to be solid mass gains.

Would the winstrol injectable be the way to go coupled with primobolan perhaps?

I want to do this and, I want to do it right…I will get a good lockbox if I have to…amazing what those little turds get into!!


belay my last about win/primo

it would be better to start with test cyp or enthanate with 20 mg of dbol for first 2 0r 3 weeks then go with deca-d in the later stages.

i definately don’t want to see all my gains pissed away so, i feel winstrol should be included…the question is when…all thru, at 2 weeks??


Winny and primo is a great cycle, provided you have enough primo available. Its an expensive drug that is often faked, and you would want at least 500mg/week. The cycle i am currently on is 500mg/week primo, 100mg/day winny (oral) and 100mg/day propionate. I am extremely impressed so far and would recommend this as a good cycle.

If like you mentioned you wanted to use deca test and dbol, the time to use the deca is at the begining. It’s not a good drug to end a cycle with due to its extremely long half life and high suppressiveness. That said, it is a drug which is very mild on the system, and running it concurrently with the dbol and test at the begining of the cycle would be ideal. You would run your dbol for the first 3-4 weeks, then switch to winny for a few more weeks, keeping usage of these alkylated steroids to under 8 weeks. Your deca and test should be frontloaded at twice your planned weekly dosage during the first week. Deca should be discontinued at least 4 weeks from the planned end of your cycle. If you can find nandrolone phenylpropionate as opposed to regular nandrolone deconate, this would be much preferred and your deca could be run much closer to the end of the cycle because the phenylpropionate ester has a very short halflife. On this cycle, hcg therapy would be a good idea because of the suppressive nature of deca. Additionally an anti-estrogen such as nolvadex should be available as both test and dbol aromatize. What have you planned for PCT?


At the end of the day ultimately its your decision. If you feel confident that a lock box will do then go for it.

If you want to minimise bloating then use of an anti-e will prevent this as justin P suggests. However it should be noted that two of the worst drugs for bloating were ones your were considering: Anadrol and D-bol.

I’ve used arimidex and letrozole on test cycles and never suffered any bloating. You could also use nolvadex or clomid. I would to prefer to use the nolvadex for PCT and for emergencies.

If you were going to use any orals I wouldn’t use them for longer than 6 weeks in total, though alot of people say that the liver toxicity of these compounds is exaggerated. Personally I think better safe than sorry.


after further review and, still more review I am considering this

sustanon at 500mg week

primotestan depot at 250mg week

nolvadex at 10mg per day

clomid used for post cycle

this cycle, from what I have read, would be a good 20lb 2 month cycle with minimum toxicity issues as well as solid gains to be expected.

It also would be one of the cheapest from what I have seen price wise.

Thoughts on this one are appreciated.



as you said that is a huge stack you are using.

being this is my first, couldn’t I see good results using half of what you are:

primo at 250 week
winstrol at 50 day
test cyp or enth at 250 week
nolvadex at 5 or 10 mg day

I say test cyp or enth because I would prefer to limit my injects to weekly

even at 250 a week, the primo is expensive…does anything approach it while holding cost down??

clomid would seem to be the best choice for post cycle.

I don’t want to include deca at this point with dbol because as creed mentioned in his earlier post what you are running is safer for the most part.

sorry for the repost as well.

trying to do the legwork has me a stumblin all over the web

thanks for your help

Personally I would go for 500mg a week of the enanthate, I think you will see much better results.

As for Primo ( assuming you mean primobolan not primotestan)I’ve never tried it but it does seem expensive, so just as a suggestion ever considered Trenbolone? It would be a lot cheaper and it gives good results.

As for Primo ( assuming you mean primobolan not primotestan)I’ve never tried it but it does seem expensive, so just as a suggestion ever considered Trenbolone? It would be a lot cheaper and it gives good results.[/quote]


I just read an article by Roberts last night using tren in a cycle with dbol and, winstrol

it is a 6 week cycle starting:
week 1-2
dbol at 20 mg day
clomid at 50 to clear out any priors
he lists cytadren at 125mg day but, I am thinking nolva at 20mg and, proviron at 50

cytadren profile looks nasty

week 2-4 includes:
trenbolan at 50mg day
dbol at 50mg day but, I will keep it at 25mg day and, winstrol depot at 50mg day

week 4-6 is frontloaded with 400mg primobolan and he sais a repeat of week 1-2 but I am thinking of winstrol in stead of the dbol as I think 4 weeks of dbol is enough.

if I am keeping this at 6 weeks can winstrol tabs be used instead of depot??

50 mg of depot per day is too expensive for me.

the nolva and proviron would be used throughout and, then clomid for post

one other question I have is I have read conflicting articles as to how dbol is taken…as in one mass dose in am or, spread evenly throughout the day…any thoughts on this is appreciated

thanx again