Is there a questionnaire I can use to out what methods might work for me?
I have a 3 ring decoder ring where you match up your somatotype with your horoscope and your Neurotype.
3 Likes
But I also have lycanthropy and post constipation anxiety. Will it work for me?
1 Like
I know you guys are joking but this reminds me of my experience boxing. I was always the type to go on youtube and analyse technique and be all intellectual about it, and I thought this approach suited me better, and I thought āIāve got a brain so surely I should use that to my advantageā. My coach was a simple guy from the countryside who was tough as nails and would just tell me YOU THINK TOO MUCH. JUST HIT HIM. JUST DO WHAT I SAY. And Iād do weight vest stuff and hill sprints and lots of sparring with basic boring hands up technique, nothing fancy. Sometimes I thought maybe this coach isnāt a good fit for me (later I realised he was the best coach I ever had). I had my first fight and a week (or two?) later my second, and what I learned (my personal experience) was that conditioning and volume beats technique and cute stuff. I still clearly remember moments during my first fight where I would think to myself āman if I just had the energy to throw a cross right now Iād winā. I lost that fight. Until you get to the highest levels, all the cute stuff just canāt handle pressure.
I also remember after me and my gym mates who also fought came back to training, we just all KNEW what we had to work on, without anyone telling us, without having to ask people on a forum, etc.
2 Likes
Boxing is ALSO a great example there because SO many dudes want to pick their āstyleā, rather than just fight and let it sort itself out. āIām tall and lanky: I MUST be an outfighter!ā Nah dude: your footwork sucks. Donāt try it. Just go slug.
1 Like
Oh yeah I guess I also learnt that competing is way more educational than even sparring, which I guess the equivalent in lifting would be like competing in an actual lifting competition will teach you way more than hosting your own āpretendā meet at home or whatever, even though on paper it seems the same except for the crowd and bright lights.
I never try to preemptively āfind my styleā anymore haha.
Now in Tateās system, your lack of conditioning and right cross endurance would be Revealed in your sparring, so you could focus Specifically on that issue in your training, before the fight.
And youād only do Some sparring, so you still had energy for general conditioning through roadwork, 1 arm pushups and chicken chasing. And specific conditioning through hitting the heavy bag and working the mitts.
Donāt worry dude, Iām with you that neither material contradicts the other.
1 Like
Interesting video though. Nothing groundbreaking, I donāt think, but interesting enough.
whoa whoaā¦
have you ever read any of the books from 1st page to the last?
Wendler clearly says that supplemental work is or is NOT the main movement.
"SUPPLEMENTAL LIFTS
These are always barbell lifts and closely resemble the main lifts. In the 5/3/1 program some popular
supplemental programs are Boring But Big, First Set Last, Second Set Last and Boring But Strong. All
of these supplemental programs can be done with one of the main lifts, and they can also be done
with an alternate lift. If you use a supplemental lift you must find the correct training max. The only
downside to using an alternate lift is some people are horribly impatient and donāt want to spend 20
minutes and test that lift and find a training max. "
You can do you FSL and BBB with a box squat, good morning and whatever, there even is a list of supplemental exercise variations in Forever.
I, however, just do an āalternativeā main exercise as an assistance, not supplemental.
So we do Amrap or 5s pro and then we do supplemental work - lets say 5x5 FSL. After that you still have some 50-100 reps of push/pull you can doā¦ i dont do as much, but for example - after deadlifts 5s pro and 5x5 i would do 3x10-12 of box squats which is assistance exercise but its also kind of related to one of the main lifts.
But you definetly CAN just check your TMs and calculate your 5x5 or 5x10 or 10x5 or whatever supplemental plan you have, and do, lets say - deadlift 5s pro and sumo deadlift 5x5, or squat 5s pro and box squat 5x5.
There are lots of people who critique Wendlers stuff(not saying you did it) but they have missed a lot of whats written in the book.
But i understand that 531 is kind of like a Bible. Those who study it have found descriptions about aliens and dinosaurs in it, while others only know the main idea, and critique it alot, hah.
1 Like
I remember there being a thread where you talked about how floored you can get from a training session. This might be why.
2 Likes
I believe that was a bad mix of deadlifting too heavy and also my work and conditioning. I did a stress test for my heart - passed perfect but what i noticed was that at the maximum intensity of the test, my bp was around 180 but my HR was only 130. When i do cardio, i often do 40mins straight with a HR of 160, so i imagine what my BP is that whole time.
That + me wanting to push some deadlift amraps a bit too far here and there and that was the result.
Nowdays i watch the amount of time i do my high intensity stuff + i reseted lots of TMs and now i even moved to 5s pro, instead of amrap sets.
I havent been tired after a workout for months.
For example, after my Squats 5s pro and FSL 5x5, i do āalternative exerciseā for deadlifts which is goodmornings 3x10-12.
I use less weight for boxsquats than i do for my goodmornings, but i also set the box pretty low - my legs are pumped but im using around 220lbs only, since its the last exercise. Doing lunges takes a lot more out of me, than box squats, for example.
It all might not even be a lifting problem as much as my overall mentality of doing everything to the maximum. If i pick up running, in a month i will either be doing a half marathon every other day(i used to do this when covid shut down gyms) or sprint till i puke for intervals for a whole hour, haha.
I try to limit my HIT to no more than 20mins a day, and do the rest of the cardio medium intenstity, and im also looking to drop all my TMs as soon as my 5s pro last weeks feels like i did a 5 rep max, instead of having smth left inside.
I also noticed that Deadlifts take a lot out of me, while squats dont, so i decided to not be so passionate about deadlifts anymore, and just focus on squats as i feel like i am better at those, and just do deadlifts with the lowest TM of all lifts.
So far im feeling very good and if my slow-mini cut at the moment wont shoot me in the leg i might be able to do my own 5 rep PR on squats after 2 weeks.
Iām glad for you that you are trending towards something that seems to be working for you. But, Iām fairly certain you understand that if you are trying to train according to the principles laid out in Forever that daily 20 minute HIT sessions would be akin to coloring outside the lines.
You might want to be open for considering that your conclusion,
āCanāt handle any volume with heavy weightsā deserves the asterisk āCanāt handle any volume with heavy weights when I do HIT 20 minutes per day, my LISS is MISS, and I do compound lifts as assistanceā.
Not that there is any reason you have to do heavy volume with heavy weights if what you are doing works for you, Iām just trying to highlight that you might be walking around with a belief about your own capabilities that might be āwrongā if the context within which you experience that inability changes.
Yes, i came to that conclusion already. As i mentioned here before - i think that was either a mix of both or just because of the cardio.
Sadly, i cant NOT do that cardio as i need it for work, so i did reduce the weight training, yes.
1 Like
I have read the books from cover to cover. I also know Jim lists supplemental lifts in his books but most of the templates he lays out he wants you to run as is and there is no clarity that you can throw in supplemental lift after your work set.
When I started using 5/3/1 I was a beginner in the gym and wasnāt smart enough to read the books and just followed something I found online. I did a BBB program and didnāt understand it or be able to run it properly. I gave up and program jumped like crazy until probably a year ago and have been dedicated to 5/3/1. The first thing I had to get down was the assistance work which most say is to add volume to the program. Until you said it I wouldnāt have thought to use a supplemental lift for the extra 5x5 work. Most of the time you read a question about a template the answer is always the same, do the program as written. Thereās a lot of information in the books and the way I viewed the information on the templates and how they are laid out the 5x5 was always the same lift that you started with not a variation of it. That could just be me and the way I took in the information.
Thereās been a lot of good information on here in this thread, which is why I asked the question, to get some conversations started to see others takes on things. I think some of the way I put things might have been taken out of context or something but thatās going to happen at times.
Have you got what you wanted out of the thread?
I believe its āyouā and how you view the information. Im not saying you are wrong but i ALWAYS understood it like that you can do supplemental stuff with main lift or any alternative lift that is simmilar to main lift if you test and pick a correct training max for it. Every time i read ābench 531, bench 5x5 FSLā i always see it as ābench 531 and bench or any alternative for bench 5x5ā. I always tought its what he ment and he just didnt want to write all that in every variation of a program. But yea, its just the way our brain works i guess. Some people read assistance āpush 100 repsā and think 1 exercise for 100 reps. I think 3 exercises for 3 sets of 10-12ā¦
Anyways, i am pretty sure you can do your fsl/bbb/bbs or whatever with an alternative exercise.
Thereās that, but also the fact that many lifters donāt have the experience to know what supplemental lifts build their main lifts and itās an unnecessary complication.
I, for one, have tried many different supplemental exercises and found practically none of them were actually improvements on the main lift (for me).
Can experience be supplanted by the following tables do you reckon?
(source: site:thibarmy.com āThe Main Purpose Of Client Assessment: Exercise Selectionā)
It is not a personal belief of mine that it is inherently better to have a supplemental lift that is different from the main lift. I just prefer it, as otherwise I become bored/disenchanted/unmotivated or whatever else you want to call it. Thus, having a different supplemental lift is for me a tool to keep my engagement level high throughout the session.
Another way to assess potential weaknesses could be looking at ratios between lifts. Charles Poliquin established some ratios that might help in highlight a weakness. With the back squat I believe Charles suggested that a proportional front squat would be 85% of the back squat. I donāt think the ratios took leverages into account, and obviously there is the element of technical proficiency. But, if someone has stalled out their back squat and decides to test their front squat and finds it to be severely lacking from 85% I certainly donāt think theyāll regress by putting some efforts into bringing their front squat up.
The short answer: I donāt know.
Long answer: Dave Tate states it isnāt in the video linked above, because the issue could be technical, mental or simply misdiagnosed. Jim is also not a fan of āweak pointā training. My thoughts are that Iāve tried many different supplemental lifts over the years and very few pay dividends. Maybe the table might be a pointer in the right direction, but only experience trying them appropriately will give you the answers.