T Nation

Darwin Fish

On the way home tonight, I noticed another of the little darwin fish on a car (Christian Jesus fish with the word “darwin” in it with feet) and it got me thinking. What kind of person really puts one of those on their car? Most (not all) of the people that I’ve known with those (Darwin fish, not cars) are typically intellectual assholes who think they have everything figured out (first clue that they’re missing something major), but that’s just from the microcosm that I call my own experience. I completely respect one’s right to believe or not believe in God, and that’s not what this post is about. Nor is this post about whether or not there is a God, and if so, which one s/he is. Those are questions that I would prefer not to get into in this format. I see where putting a Darwin fish on your car is quite humorous if you don’t believe in God, but it must be quite offensive to those that do. I also wonder why it’s necessary that they let others know that they think the other person’s belief is a joke. For any of you that display Darwin fish, what is your motivation to do so? For those that don’t, does this kind of thing bother you? To get rid of some unnecessary flames - yes people have every legal right to display Darwin fish, and yes, I’m just expressing my opinion.

As a related issue, I don't really like it when people identify themselves by their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, right off the bat. "Hi, my name is John, and I'm a Christian/Athiest/Britney Spears worshipper." I just hate it when they bring everything back to their beliefs. I think it's much more meaningful to get to know a person a little better before discussing God. Especially if you're religious. You shouldn't have to tell me that you're religious, I should figure it out from the way you live your life. Unfortunately for religion, it's often so hard to tell just from observing someone's life.

You have two issues you’re addressing here. One–the fish with feet: I’ve never seen one of those stickers, so I can’t comment on that. As for people who introduce their beliefs along with their name–they usually tend to be rabid about their beliefs and incredibly annoying to talk to, because that’s all they will talk about. That kind of introduction is also sort of like one-upmanship in their eyes. It drives me nuts too and I try to stay clear of people like that in social situations. Arguing with them would be pointless and conversation would be incredibly boring because it would be only on one topic.

Your last paragraph is right on. Here’s a question – if it were suddenly illegal to be Christian/Athiest/Muslim, would there be enough evidence against you to convict you? I remember a quote (though I can’t remember the person it’s attributed to off the top of my head) that goes something like this: "I live my life for six days so that people will know what I mean on the seventh."

As a Christian, I do not take offense at the “Darwin” fish bumper sticker. It’s sad to me, but not offensive.

I don’t get the big deal about the Darwin fish versus the Jesus fish. The ichthus symbol does not have anything to do with creationism, but was used a symbol for Jesus. Even the history and reasoning behind that is not fully understood. It IS known that the same symbol was a PAGAN symbol of fertility well before Christianity. So why create a Darwin fish? The concepts don’t really clash properly.

In fact, creationism vs. evolution don’t even clash all that well. They are not necessarily different. I was taught in a Catholic High School by Catholic priests and Franciscan nuns that the creation story in the bible is a metaphor, written at a time when the people could not possibly comprehend Darwinian theories or the time scales involved. “God”, however you define the concept, is behind creation in any form, whether it be the big bang, or the seven day, “zap the universe into existence” method. So I was taught and so I choose to believe.

The history of humankind’s relationship to “God”, even through the bible, is that humanity continually tries to understand “God”. “God” gave humanity the gift of intellect, which humanity uses to progressively understand “God”. The more we understand the ways of “God”, the more we have to respect “God”. Darwinian theories are just one more of man’s attempts to understand and they highlight the mysteries and powers behind “God”. So maybe the Darwin fish are really saying the same thing as the ichthus.

I don’t think people who believe in Darwinism don’t necessarily not believe in God. They just believe in evolution. You can believe in both.
However, if someone chooses not to believe in God, can THEY be offended by someone who puts a Jesus Fish on their car? It goes both ways. Repect a person’s right to believe what they believe and always look at something from both sides.
I believe in God although I have no religious affiliation and I think the Darwin fish is funny, but that’s me. I also think those who have the bigger Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish are funny.
If people are trying to offend and make a statement that their way of believing is right or better, then that’s too bad. But if they are just trying to have some fun, so be it. Don’t take everything so seriously. Life’s too short.

I dislike when poeple introduce themselves and mention what they are. I run into this mainly with gays. They have intoduced themselves like “Hi, I am Charles and I am a homosexual”. I like dude, I don’t give a shit. I don’t go around saying “Hi I am Pat and I prefer to fuck women” dirves me nuts. I haven’t really heard the retoric from mainline religious beliefs unless they were trying to convert me, which hasn’t worked. They drive me nuts too, but I am polite about it. I don’t want to fuel their fire.

As far as the Darwin fish are concerned, it doesn't bother me. They are entitled to believe what they want to and they can put it on their car if they want to.I think Darwin had some good theories anyway. It still cannot expain away the existance of God so I embrace his thoeries as distinct possibilities. I concider Darwin a moron for thinking a good thoery could disprove the existance of God. I darn sure don't believe in creationism as a theory. A philosophical/theological truth, yes, and archeological fact, hell no.

Yorik, I agree with you. I just don’t see how Creationism and Darwinism necessarily clash, except for those few Christian sects that believe that everything in the Bible must be taken literally.

Jared, I also agree with you that you shouldn't have to advertise the fact that you're a member of a particular faith. I think there's a quote in the Bible that says something about letting your inner light shine so others can see... basically, it's saying that people should know through your actions, not what you say.

So has anyone seen the one of the Darwin fish being swallowed by a big fish with "Truth" written on its side? I think they're all pretty amusing, but then again I'm not super religious.

You know what they say about Born Again Christians:
They are a bigger pain the second time around!!

I like the sticker because I’m more of a scientist than religious person. I think it’s stupid that two politicians, for example, will both say that God is on their side. How could that be true? Same goes for athletes. How could God be in the corner of two people in competition with each other? I also don’t know how someone can say “I’d like to thank God for letting me buy this Mercedes…” etc. I can see how someone would like to feel like someone’s looking out for everybody, but with all the bad stuff that happens in the world, I sort of doubt that He’s for real. I like the idea in Anatole France’s Revolt of Angels, where God is evil & the Devil is just benign.

History of the fish symbol as it pertains to Christians – at a time when it WAS illegal to be Christian, they were essentially in hiding. When one person on the road would happen upon another, they would converse. In the conversation, one person would casually make half the fish symbol in the dirt (an arc), either with their foot or staff. If the other person finished the fish symbol (with another arc) they would then know that they were talking with another Christian, and could be open with the other person about their faith without fear of arrest. It’s been carried on since as a Christian symbol.

Here’s an analogy that may help, if lots of people were driving around with a lightning bolt on their cars that said Zeus, I would be the one driving around with a lightning bolt that read “ion exchange”.

Guys, about a year ago I read an article that compared and contrasted Creationism and Evolution. The main point the author was trying to make was that a person cannot believe 100% in evolution and also believe in Christianity. This didn’t make sense to me at first but I kept reading. His point was that if evolution has occured as scientists describe it then Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden did not exist. If Adam and Eve did not exist then Adam never ate the fruit and original sin was never bestowed upon humanity. If original sin was never present then Jesus Christ came and died for nothing. It was a point that I had never heard of before and I followed what the author wrote but that’s not to say I agree with him 100%. Its just difficult for me to come up with a better argument against it. Though I still think you should be entitled to believe what you want on matters that are not concrete. Anyways, I just wanted to let you guys know that b/c I found interesting if nothing else. Later.

you dont like it because like all conservatives you cant stand the fact that someone has an opinion that differs from yours.

I never really understood why adherents of science and religion were so adamantly opposed to one another. After all, they are more alike than dissimilar.

While I may be outspoken about my political and spiritual beliefs, I would never stoop so low as to commit them to an adornment for the ass-end of my car.

Regardless of the article you read, evolution and creationism can co-exist. For example, evolution is going along (started by god)and when the first paleo human turns into a modern human god gives them a soul (Adam and Eve, the first humans). They live in a garden paradise of food and happiness (about how I think my dog sees the world) but then they eat the forbidden fruit of god (self-knowledge) once you become self-concious you lose your innocence (like adam and eve) and are destined to live the rest of your days in toil and agony (conscious of your mortality).

Where did I say what I believed? Just curious.

If I’m a conservative and “cant stand the fact that someone has an opinion that differs from [mine]”, then are you a cynical wise-ass that thinks everything is relative? If not, then please don’t assume what you know about me. I knew that someone would go off assuming what I believe or did not believe by me saying something negative about evolutionists. Ugh.

Dan, if you take two seconds and have enough self-awareness, you can see what an absolutely hypocritical statement you just made. I’d explain my position more thoroughly, but if you don’t see the innate error in your statement, I’m afraid that no matter what I say, you won’t listen.

I see what you’re saying, and that’s an interesting point of view. But again, I think it really depends on how literally you take the Bible. If you litereally believe that there was an Adam, and an Eve, an Eden, and a serpent, well, evolution might not fit into that picture very well. But, if you believe that the teachings of the Bible are more metaphorical, then they tend to mesh together a little better. I’m not trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole here, just saying that I still don’t see how the two ideas necessarily clash.

Let me get this straight Jared. When a christian puts a fish symbol on their vehicle it’s about the Christian’s faith and when a non-christian puts the darwin thingy on their car it’s still about the christian’s faith? Yeah right.