Damn Christians are at it Again...

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
ACLU= against christian liberties union[/quote]

Churches collect billions of dollars a year without paying a dime in taxes, and people who contribute are allowed to deduct that contribution from their income for tax purposes.

Tell me again how badly Christians are persecuted.[/quote]

Mosques don’t pay taxes, so Muslims can’t be persecuted? Good to know.[/quote]

I think ALL religions are nonsense and Islam especially, so I’m not defending Islam at all. Once religion disappears, and it will, I hope Islam is the first to go.
[/quote]

???
So you admit that not paying taxes in no logical way has any effect on persecution?

And religion will never go away. It may eventually become a worship of state, but it’s still the same ballpark.[/quote]

As to your first point, all I’m saying is that religious organizations are granted a special right. Hardly a marker of “persecution.” And while mentioning Christianity in schools has ruffled feathers and caused controversies, last time I checked, federal troops have never placed armed guards outside a church and prevented faithful from entering. If that ever happens, let me know and I will represent you for free. The idea that any religious group, especially Christians, are persecuted is based on a misrepresentation of the law. For instance, there is no law preventing prayer in school. Any student may pray silently to himself or herself. Back when I was religious, I used to do this all the time before tests. I was never sent to the principal’s office for this - heck, no one even knew I was doing it. What IS prohibited is having ALL students hear any sort of prayer said over the entire intercom system. There’s a difference.

As to your second point, I’m a libertarian, not a liberal. I just happen to agree with most liberals that religion is nonsense and I also believe in individual rights and personal freedom. I would NEVER favor making the state a religion.

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
ACLU= against christian liberties union[/quote]

Churches collect billions of dollars a year without paying a dime in taxes, and people who contribute are allowed to deduct that contribution from their income for tax purposes.

Tell me again how badly Christians are persecuted.[/quote]

Mosques don’t pay taxes, so Muslims can’t be persecuted? Good to know.[/quote]

I think ALL religions are nonsense and Islam especially, so I’m not defending Islam at all. Once religion disappears, and it will, I hope Islam is the first to go.
[/quote]

???
So you admit that not paying taxes in no logical way has any effect on persecution?

And religion will never go away. It may eventually become a worship of state, but it’s still the same ballpark.[/quote]

As to your first point, all I’m saying is that religious organizations are granted a special right. Hardly a marker of “persecution.” And while mentioning Christianity in schools has ruffled feathers and caused controversies, last time I checked, federal troops have never placed armed guards outside a church and prevented faithful from entering. If that ever happens, let me know and I will represent you for free. The idea that any religious group, especially Christians, are persecuted is based on a misrepresentation of the law. For instance, there is no law preventing prayer in school. Any student may pray silently to himself or herself. Back when I was religious, I used to do this all the time before tests. I was never sent to the principal’s office for this - heck, no one even knew I was doing it. What IS prohibited is having ALL students hear any sort of prayer said over the entire intercom system. There’s a difference.

As to your second point, I’m a libertarian, not a liberal. I just happen to agree with most liberals that religion is nonsense and I also believe in individual rights and personal freedom. I would NEVER favor making the state a religion.
[/quote]

I’ve never heard a prayer over the intercom.

But does the protection go as far as to protect from the biased naming of holidays? That sort of thing is what I find ridiculous. Or a teacher getting in trouble for a religious oriented shirt. (gay pride or something would be tolerated)

Or trying to stop the students in the marching band from getting together and saying a prayer before a competition.

And there already is much in the way of state worship.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I’ve never heard a prayer over the intercom.[/quote]

Right, because this was stopped in the 1960s - before your time and mine. However, people misconstrue this as “we are not allowed to pray in school.” This is false. Group prayer is not allowed; individual silent prayer is perfectly fine.

Give me an example of “biased naming of holidays.” Do I object to the word Christmas? Of course not. But I also don’t object to the idea that Christmas is really just a continuation of a celebration of the winter solstice that goes back centuries before the birth of Christ, and the Christmas tree was adapted from a Druid celebration in an effort to convert the Druids to Christianity.

I have a simple rule here: Teachers should not wear ANY T-Shirts that have any sort of lettering on them. Period. Can we agree on that?

This goes back to the group prayer thing. Are a few students getting together or is their pressure for ALL of the band members to pray together? Keep in mind that those who are excluded are not just those “evil” non-Christians. From experience, I know that there is a definite divide between Catholics and Protestants. You can see this in many of these threads. There is even tension among Protestant denominations - I hear that some Baptists think Episcopalians are a bit wacky. So, what’s to prevent the band members from saying “All are welcome to pray in our little group, except for those damn Catholics?” This is what I said about being careful what you wish for. Everyone automatically thinks that only the evil non-believers want religion out of the public arena. What I’m saying is that once you allow religion into the public, you will still have religious conflict. Except instead of Christians vs. non-believers as we have now, you’ll have Catholics vs. Baptists vs. Episcopalians vs. the guy who has his own church and calls it a Christian church. You think you have lawsuits now…

And that’s too damn bad and not something I support.

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I’ve never heard a prayer over the intercom.[/quote]

Right, because this was stopped in the 1960s - before your time and mine. However, people misconstrue this as “we are not allowed to pray in school.” This is false. Group prayer is not allowed; individual silent prayer is perfectly fine.

Give me an example of “biased naming of holidays.” Do I object to the word Christmas? Of course not. But I also don’t object to the idea that Christmas is really just a continuation of a celebration of the winter solstice that goes back centuries before the birth of Christ, and the Christmas tree was adapted from a Druid celebration in an effort to convert the Druids to Christianity.

[/quote]
All saints day and many others are examples too. They were trying to make conversion easier. It’s easier to get people to change the tone of a holiday than to get them not to have it anymore. But many people currently attempt to take it that far. The spring spheres thread recently for example.

Eh, that is tricky. Lettering isn’t the only way to convey messages. For example wearing a rainbow shirt on gay pride day.

We would just walk over to a corner and say a prayer (some people didn’t). No faculty involved. They tried to stop us but we did it anyway and no one ever physically tried to intervene.

[quote]

And that’s too damn bad and not something I support.[/quote]

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I wonder if the ACLU would be upset if the school board wanted to teach children all about homosexuality? Ah, we all know the answer to that don’t we?[/quote]

Would it not be fair to say that if one ‘lifestyle choice’ (as people often depict homosexuality) is to be kept entirely out of the classroom, so should others (religion, etc.)?[/quote]

The ACLU doesn’t think so.[/quote]

I know what the ACLU thinks and I don’t agree with them. I’m asking what YOU people think.[/quote]

Like what I just said about religious fliers, one “freedom of speech” is never exactly equal to another. Are we talking about biology class teaching about general homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom, including humans, or a liberal hippy English teacher shoving the acceptance of homosexuality down kids throats? Cause I had both in school.

The same would go for religion. Learning about history, the law, American culture, est should infact touch on Christianity. But a teacher should not preach personal religious convictions. I have never personally been witness to the ladder.

So the question needs to be more specific. I’m not inherently for or against either.[/quote]

I’m in complete agreement.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Eh, that is tricky. Lettering isn’t the only way to convey messages. For example wearing a rainbow shirt on gay pride day.
[/quote]

Good point. I actually don’t have a problem with school uniforms - including uniforms for teachers. On the first day at our school, the faculty all wear a polo with the school’s name on it in either green or white, the school’s official colors; pants are their choice (but pants must be worn, obviously!). It’s a nice look - professional yet casual. I’ve always believed that creativity is best expressed through what you do, not what you wear.

I would say it was wrong of them to do that and a violation of the First Amendment. I understand that the First Amendment cuts both ways.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I wonder if the ACLU would be upset if the school board wanted to teach children all about homosexuality? Ah, we all know the answer to that don’t we?[/quote]

Would it not be fair to say that if one ‘lifestyle choice’ (as people often depict homosexuality) is to be kept entirely out of the classroom, so should others (religion, etc.)?[/quote]

Oh, I guess the point slipped right past you huh? (ruffles hair) You see sparky the powerful teachers unions are L I B E R A L and very much PC. That means that they WILL allow such things as homosexuality to be discussed and in fact push that agenda (of acceptance, not just tolerance) toward our youth. While at the same time any mention of God or church in school is met with a law suit from the folks at the ACLU.

Now I want you go back and think really hard how the United States of America became the greatest nation in the world. Was it by promoting homosexuality? Or, was it by having a strong Judeo/Christain base?

Are we clear now? Okay, Off you go…

[/quote]

My belief is that neither topic is off-limits if treated with due sensitivity. A teacher shouldn’t tell kids that gay marriage is OK or not OK. He should likewise refrain from teaching Genesis as if it is undisputed truth. But neither issue should ever be verboten.[/quote]

Reread my above post, I don’t have much to add to that. Other than to say, (once again) teachers are by nature liberal, they are PC and will be pushing an agenda. And tha’t NOT what teachers are being paid to do. And as has been mentioned by others they are not trained to even go there. But funny how we mentioned God in school and even prayed in school for 200 years and it didn’t harm a thing. This is off topic so I won’t go into the number of school shootings, and general violence since prayer has been removed.

Nope, no mention or acknowledgement of anything gay in public schools, that’s not what they are there for.

What else do you want to talk about?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
This is off topic so I won’t go into the number of school shootings, and general violence since prayer has been removed.[/quote]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Any other fallacies you have?

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Now I want you go back and think really hard how the United States of America became the greatest nation in the world. Was it by promoting homosexuality? Or, was it by having a strong Judeo/Christain base?[/quote]

Neither. It was because of a strong belief in individual rights. Not community rights or rights of the majority, but individual rights.

For the record, I don’t see a problem with a church letting a school use their facilities for events such as graduation. However, I do believe in a strict separation of church and state. I formed this belief back when I was religious. Here is a real life example of why everyone should favor separation of church and state. Unfortunately, I forget where this took place. A school board was approached by a Christian group that wanted to send some information home in students’ weekly take-home folders. The school board didn’t think this was a problem. Naturally, many Christian parents were thrilled. Some time later, a Wiccan group wanted to do the same thing. The school board decided, correctly I might add, that if they allowed the Christian group access for their information they had to allow the Wiccan group the same access. So kids received Wiccan information in their folders. The parents were infuriated, and many complained to the school board. Moral of the story: If you really want religion in the public sphere, be careful what you wish for.[/quote]

Well, plenty of things made this country great. I submit to you that the values generated by a strong Judeo/Christian society were certainly a strong part of it. And as freaks like “Cap” and “forlife” get their way we move further away from what made us great. Sure, we might succeed anyway, but I don’t like the early returns relative to what I’m seeing.

I’d like to go back to the days where you could send Christian material home. We had a safer, and in many ways better society then. I don’t want to be fair to the Wiccan’s, or any other fringe group that feels left out.

This is a Judeo/Christian society not a Wiccan society, thank God. And moreover what we’ve done actually works. It is now being dismantled piece by piece through various pc groups who want to please every one. We’ve come way, way too far honoring literally micro percentages of society at the cost of the entire society.

You’re a reasonable guy and I know you know exactly what I’m talking about.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I wonder if the ACLU would be upset if the school board wanted to teach children all about homosexuality? Ah, we all know the answer to that don’t we?[/quote]

Would it not be fair to say that if one ‘lifestyle choice’ (as people often depict homosexuality) is to be kept entirely out of the classroom, so should others (religion, etc.)?[/quote]

Oh, I guess the point slipped right past you huh? (ruffles hair) You see sparky the powerful teachers unions are L I B E R A L and very much PC. That means that they WILL allow such things as homosexuality to be discussed and in fact push that agenda (of acceptance, not just tolerance) toward our youth. While at the same time any mention of God or church in school is met with a law suit from the folks at the ACLU.

Now I want you go back and think really hard how the United States of America became the greatest nation in the world. Was it by promoting homosexuality? Or, was it by having a strong Judeo/Christain base?

Are we clear now? Okay, Off you go…

[/quote]

My belief is that neither topic is off-limits if treated with due sensitivity. A teacher shouldn’t tell kids that gay marriage is OK or not OK. He should likewise refrain from teaching Genesis as if it is undisputed truth. But neither issue should ever be verboten.[/quote]

Reread my above post, I don’t have much to add to that. Other than to say, (once again) teachers are by nature liberal, they are PC and will be pushing an agenda. And tha’t NOT what teachers are being paid to do. And as has been mentioned by others they are not trained to even go there. But funny how we mentioned God in school and even prayed in school for 200 years and it didn’t harm a thing. This is off topic so I won’t go into the number of school shootings, and general violence since prayer has been removed.

Nope, no mention or acknowledgement of anything gay in public schools, that’s not what they are there for.

What else do you want to talk about?[/quote]

Isn’t/Wasn’t Headhunter a teacher?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Reread my above post, I don’t have much to add to that. Other than to say, (once again) teachers are by nature liberal, they are PC and will be pushing an agenda. And tha’t NOT what teachers are being paid to do. And as has been mentioned by others they are not trained to even go there. But funny how we mentioned God in school and even prayed in school for 200 years and it didn’t harm a thing. This is off topic so I won’t go into the number of school shootings, and general violence since prayer has been removed.[/quote]

So following this logic, most teachers are not trained theologians - they are not trained in religious studies and it’s not what they are paid to do. So, no mention of anything religious or God-related. Focus more on improving math and science.

Agreed?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

And for the record, there is no separation of church and state. The only thing in the constitution is protection for the church from congressional laws.[/quote]

BINGO! You are the grand prize winner today. This has been twisted and turned so badly by the left that it has truly lost its meaning. The original intent being that the church was to be protected from the government. Not the other way around.

-“In God We Trust” on money.

-The opening of Congress with a prayer

-The pledge with God in it

God was NEVER to be kept out of government.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I wonder if the ACLU would be upset if the school board wanted to teach children all about homosexuality? Ah, we all know the answer to that don’t we?[/quote]

Would it not be fair to say that if one ‘lifestyle choice’ (as people often depict homosexuality) is to be kept entirely out of the classroom, so should others (religion, etc.)?[/quote]

Matters if it is moral or not.

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
ACLU= against christian liberties union[/quote]

Churches collect billions of dollars a year without paying a dime in taxes, and people who contribute are allowed to deduct that contribution from their income for tax purposes.

Tell me again how badly Christians are persecuted.[/quote]

Mosques don’t pay taxes, so Muslims can’t be persecuted? Good to know.[/quote]

I think ALL religions are nonsense and Islam especially, so I’m not defending Islam at all. Once religion disappears, and it will, I hope Islam is the first to go.
[/quote]

And the day Christianity is outlawed will be the beginning of the end. As I’ve said in the past if nothing else it is the moral compass that will disappear. And without that it’s over. Just take a look around right now. You want a list?

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
ACLU= against christian liberties union[/quote]

Churches collect billions of dollars a year without paying a dime in taxes, and people who contribute are allowed to deduct that contribution from their income for tax purposes.

Tell me again how badly Christians are persecuted.[/quote]

Mosques don’t pay taxes, so Muslims can’t be persecuted? Good to know.[/quote]

I think ALL religions are nonsense and Islam especially, so I’m not defending Islam at all. Once religion disappears, and it will, I hope Islam is the first to go.
[/quote]

Religion is part of human nature. Man has been trying to reconcile with G-d since the beginning of time.

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Teaching about homosexuality in the context of biology is no more promoting it than teaching about Hitler in the context of a history class on World War II is promoting Nazism. Why can’t more people understand this?
[/quote]

Because teahcers don’t like Hitler. On the other hand…

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
This is off topic so I won’t go into the number of school shootings, and general violence since prayer has been removed.[/quote]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Any other fallacies you have?
[/quote]

You can say that about any shift in history. This is isn’t science so we cannot experiment and find the absolute reason. Why don’t you tell me why the change? When you’re finished I’ll give you my opinion.

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I wonder if the ACLU would be upset if the school board wanted to teach children all about homosexuality? Ah, we all know the answer to that don’t we?[/quote]

Would it not be fair to say that if one ‘lifestyle choice’ (as people often depict homosexuality) is to be kept entirely out of the classroom, so should others (religion, etc.)?[/quote]

Oh, I guess the point slipped right past you huh? (ruffles hair) You see sparky the powerful teachers unions are L I B E R A L and very much PC. That means that they WILL allow such things as homosexuality to be discussed and in fact push that agenda (of acceptance, not just tolerance) toward our youth. While at the same time any mention of God or church in school is met with a law suit from the folks at the ACLU.

Now I want you go back and think really hard how the United States of America became the greatest nation in the world. Was it by promoting homosexuality? Or, was it by having a strong Judeo/Christain base?

Are we clear now? Okay, Off you go…

[/quote]

My belief is that neither topic is off-limits if treated with due sensitivity. A teacher shouldn’t tell kids that gay marriage is OK or not OK. He should likewise refrain from teaching Genesis as if it is undisputed truth. But neither issue should ever be verboten.[/quote]

Reread my above post, I don’t have much to add to that. Other than to say, (once again) teachers are by nature liberal, they are PC and will be pushing an agenda. And tha’t NOT what teachers are being paid to do. And as has been mentioned by others they are not trained to even go there. But funny how we mentioned God in school and even prayed in school for 200 years and it didn’t harm a thing. This is off topic so I won’t go into the number of school shootings, and general violence since prayer has been removed.

Nope, no mention or acknowledgement of anything gay in public schools, that’s not what they are there for.

What else do you want to talk about?[/quote]

Isn’t/Wasn’t Headhunter a teacher?[/quote]

Yes he is and if you want to trust a mind like that to do anything but stick to what he was specifically trained to do – think again!

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’d like to go back to the days where you could send Christian material home. We had a safer, and in many ways better society then. I don’t want to be fair to the Wiccan’s, or any other fringe group that feels left out.

This is a Judeo/Christian society not a Wiccan society, thank God. And moreover what we’ve done actually works. It is now being dismantled piece by piece through various pc groups who want to please every one. We’ve come way, way too far honoring literally micro percentages of society at the cost of the entire society.

You’re a reasonable guy and I know you know exactly what I’m talking about.

[/quote]

Read my post about being careful what you wish for. As I’ve said, Christians can’t even agree and the tenets of Christianity. But let’s play let’s pretend. We now have a law that says anything Christian related can be sent home to kids but no other religion allowed. Great. I am a former biology teacher who has become the principle of a school. I happen to be Catholic which, last I checked, was a Christian denomination. I decide to send home material saying that Pope John Paul II endorsed evolution. This is true. He is also now a saint, or in the process of becoming one. So, we have a saint who endorsed evolution. Certain fundamentalists in my district who believe in creation are infuriated by this. But they can’t do a damn thing about it because my material does not endorse any religion other than Christianity. Good result?

It is true that the fringe groups tend to make the noise, but what they are fighting for ultimately protects all religious groups, even Christian groups. And last I checked, no goverment police force has forcible kept any Christian group from entering a house of worship because a Wiccan group wanted it to be so. Christianity is the dominant religion and enjoys many benefits. Spare me the persecution complex.

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Reread my above post, I don’t have much to add to that. Other than to say, (once again) teachers are by nature liberal, they are PC and will be pushing an agenda. And tha’t NOT what teachers are being paid to do. And as has been mentioned by others they are not trained to even go there. But funny how we mentioned God in school and even prayed in school for 200 years and it didn’t harm a thing. This is off topic so I won’t go into the number of school shootings, and general violence since prayer has been removed.[/quote]

So following this logic, most teachers are not trained theologians - they are not trained in religious studies and it’s not what they are paid to do. So, no mention of anything religious or God-related. Focus more on improving math and science.

Agreed?
[/quote]

Zeb’s first rule of success: Do what works! What has worked is prayer in school. We had it for over 200 years. What does not seem to be working is having no prayer in school. Would you like to compare grades, behavior, and a list of other important values before prayer was taken out to today? No, no you woldn’t who would? And by the way most of the major (historical) colleges were all founded by Christians and they taught divinity as just another mandatory course. So they were indeed taught religion.