Daily Coffee & Cortisol Issues

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
VT,

Have you personally tried any of Poliquin’s ideas yourself ?

I understand if you don’t understand them (shit, most people don’t understand Poliquin’s stuff but that is because he is so far ahead of the curve).

I have used Poliquin’s ideas for some time now, and have had my best gains and progress using them, irrelevant of the goal.

I wish I had access to his knowledge and supplements when I played football in college, I cannot even imagine how much better I would have been, seeing how our strength and conditioning coach was a marathon runner back them.

Try out some of his stuff on your own, then come back and make an opinion based on your experience. [/quote]

I won’t waste my time, sorry.
You have some guru telling me my sleep is fucked up bc my calve caliper readings are fat and that my armpit is fat, therefor my thyroid is broken, and you really want me to waste my time doing anything?
I can’t even begin to remember all the stupid shit that poli has said over the years. I don’t agree 100% with any popular coach most of the time, but charles is broscience and horse shit all in one.

Oh, and I don’t know your reputation on here, you calling poli “ahead of the curve” means you are out of your fucking mind, and delusional. Sorry bro

I never knew I had a reputation.

I did read some studies in S&C journals that said athletes on Multi event days saw better recovery between events, reduction of soreness with a little shot of caffeine after the first event. I have used this on my self and other athletes very briefly, very mildly and saw a difference in performance.

If you are just lifting one time a day and then nothing post you should at worst stick to green tea or nada. A lot of people don’t really understand that we rely on “helpers” (ie coffee, 5 hours, supplements) for energy because we are so naturally depleted.

If you want to drop Cortisol levels post wod: vitamin C or any other herb that promotes relaxation will work well (licorice, Rhod, L-Theanine etc etc) will help. So will taking a fucking nap, 10 min meditation or power nap, relaxing shower, a walk etc. You just want to calm down and chill.

As far as VT and these claims, people don’t like the guy I totally understand that. The dude has changed a lot in aspects of Nutrition/Supplementation/Fitness etc. He is a strange cat, no doubt about that, but he is backed up by science pretty hard. Its hard to argue with him on a lot. He is shady in a lot of ways. I know a coach who has known him for over 10 years so I got to find out a lot of real shit about the guy but you cant say a guy with a bio like this: http://www.charlespoliquin.com/AboutUs/AboutCharles.aspx
doesn’t know shit. Contras talked a lot of shit that went no where but that dude is considered the glute guy and as far as I know hasn’t trained a professional in not-a-damn-thing. The “guru” created and developed most of supplements and programs you browse through on this very site. Is he the end all be all or best thing in fitness, not a fucking chance. Does he say some weird shit, find me someone that successful and seasoned who doesn’t. You don’t like him, cool, that’s an opinion. he doesn’t know shit, well if you cant back that up, then it isn’t fact.

Also: he didn’t invent Biosig, there are several other programs just like that around and it is based off german science from the 1930s. He has actually created only a few original ideas but he is one hell of a researcher and modifier as well as innovator.

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
VT,

Have you personally tried any of Poliquin’s ideas yourself ?

I understand if you don’t understand them (shit, most people don’t understand Poliquin’s stuff but that is because he is so far ahead of the curve).

I have used Poliquin’s ideas for some time now, and have had my best gains and progress using them, irrelevant of the goal.

I wish I had access to his knowledge and supplements when I played football in college, I cannot even imagine how much better I would have been, seeing how our strength and conditioning coach was a marathon runner back them.

Try out some of his stuff on your own, then come back and make an opinion based on your experience. [/quote]

I won’t waste my time, sorry.
You have some guru telling me my sleep is fucked up bc my calve caliper readings are fat and that my armpit is fat, therefor my thyroid is broken, and you really want me to waste my time doing anything?
I can’t even begin to remember all the stupid shit that poli has said over the years. I don’t agree 100% with any popular coach most of the time, but charles is broscience and horse shit all in one.

Oh, and I don’t know your reputation on here, you calling poli “ahead of the curve” means you are out of your fucking mind, and delusional. Sorry bro[/quote]

I like some of poliquins ideas about training. His coaching points for chinups were really good, and I liked his idea of using snatch grip deadlifts for building mass (probably not originally his idea, but it’s at least something I don’t think he’s wrong about), but he’s a coach. He definitely doesn’t have any credibility as a nutritionist or endocrinologist

Not to go off topic, or make any serious statements…

but I kind of chuckled at the credibility as a nutritionist or endocrinologist :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t mean that as an attack, just a poor example based on how it seems people feel about them haha! Especially the endos!

[quote]KcThrows wrote:
Not to go off topic, or make any serious statements…

but I kind of chuckled at the credibility as a nutritionist or endocrinologist :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t mean that as an attack, just a poor example based on how it seems people feel about them haha! Especially the endos! [/quote]

lol touche

but seriously its kind of the same thing with rippetoe. As far as training goes I think his approach is spot on, but what the hell is he doing telling people to eat the way he does? and if rippetoe were talking about cortisol and thyroid function I would just ignore that as well

Hipsr4runnin-

Not sure what you mean about Charles changing a lot… he’s been looney since he got famous.

Re his backing in science: Sure, but as I said in one of first posts, even idiots get it right sometimes. Not one of his non-common-sense statements has been backed, I guarantee it bc I used to to read his articles and website, most of the citations are bs. Give me a good example with some actual research that applies and we can talk about that. Especially about Dominican Republic mangoes if you can, or curing genetic diseases with fish-oil

Re his client list: So what? the clients pick him. As far as I know they just used his gym, that list hasn’t changed in YEARSZZZZ, I promise you. Everyone brings up the list…
A few things, the clients pick the coach. They don’t know what they are doing half the time, so they choose a coach, that’s a given. I have no info on how long or successful those clients were, and neither does anyone else for some reason… hmmmm… I know one for sure got in trouble for roids after starting work with him (possible coincidence is a real option tho)

On a related note, did you hear about Troy Polamalu’s physical therapy that he believed in? Great client:stupid therapy/coach (for lolz go to youtube and search revolution physical therapy).
So yes, I can say I guy with that bio doesn’t know shit.
Feel free to show me gains/testimonies (not on CP’s website, from the actual source) from clients and I’ll shut my mouth.

There are successful coaches, who are famous and seasoned who don’t say stupid shit. You get a power trip at the top and you get shit on. I only comment on any of this so newbs stop following STUPID info from someone with big guns and a very pretty gym.

Did I miss anything?

On topic: caffeine has a half life of about 6 hours, so pre-workout caffeine means that post workout you still have a vast majority of the caffeine in your blood stream, which most likely means that pre-workout caffeine doesn’t kill gains…Take this one small step further and a cup of coffee after you lift is not going to kill you, especially assuming proper post-workout nutrition.

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Hipsr4runnin-

Not sure what you mean about Charles changing a lot… he’s been looney since he got famous.

Re his backing in science: Sure, but as I said in one of first posts, even idiots get it right sometimes. Not one of his non-common-sense statements has been backed, I guarantee it bc I used to to read his articles and website, most of the citations are bs. Give me a good example with some actual research that applies and we can talk about that. Especially about Dominican Republic mangoes if you can, or curing genetic diseases with fish-oil

Re his client list: So what? the clients pick him. As far as I know they just used his gym, that list hasn’t changed in YEARSZZZZ, I promise you. Everyone brings up the list…
A few things, the clients pick the coach. They don’t know what they are doing half the time, so they choose a coach, that’s a given. I have no info on how long or successful those clients were, and neither does anyone else for some reason… hmmmm… I know one for sure got in trouble for roids after starting work with him (possible coincidence is a real option tho)

On a related note, did you hear about Troy Polamalu’s physical therapy that he believed in? Great client:stupid therapy/coach (for lolz go to youtube and search revolution physical therapy).
So yes, I can say I guy with that bio doesn’t know shit.
Feel free to show me gains/testimonies (not on CP’s website, from the actual source) from clients and I’ll shut my mouth.

There are successful coaches, who are famous and seasoned who don’t say stupid shit. You get a power trip at the top and you get shit on. I only comment on any of this so newbs stop following STUPID info from someone with big guns and a very pretty gym.

Did I miss anything?

[/quote]

I think shows how far behind you are in knowledge of current events.

Troy Polamalu using Platelet Rich Therapy for his injury might be space-age to the rest of us peons, but for pro athletes it’s more common than you think. Pro athletes also use hyberbaric chambers to promote accelerated recovery too, is that crazy ?

During my time in college football during the early 90’s, it was nothing special to see guys getting IV drips of fluid at halftime. Or taking ice baths following games and practices to help with recovery. This is common NOW, but doing it 20 years before it was mainstream means someone knew something that others did not.

Poliquin has been in the game for decades, and been doing it successfully. If you want to criticize him when you have no reasons to, since you said you have never tried any of his ideas yourself, makes you look downright stupid.

PS - pro athletes bank their lives (and their millions) on “being in the know”, so the idea that they would knowingly put their trust into a bullshitter makes no sense at all.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Hipsr4runnin-

Not sure what you mean about Charles changing a lot… he’s been looney since he got famous.

Re his backing in science: Sure, but as I said in one of first posts, even idiots get it right sometimes. Not one of his non-common-sense statements has been backed, I guarantee it bc I used to to read his articles and website, most of the citations are bs. Give me a good example with some actual research that applies and we can talk about that. Especially about Dominican Republic mangoes if you can, or curing genetic diseases with fish-oil

Re his client list: So what? the clients pick him. As far as I know they just used his gym, that list hasn’t changed in YEARSZZZZ, I promise you. Everyone brings up the list…
A few things, the clients pick the coach. They don’t know what they are doing half the time, so they choose a coach, that’s a given. I have no info on how long or successful those clients were, and neither does anyone else for some reason… hmmmm… I know one for sure got in trouble for roids after starting work with him (possible coincidence is a real option tho)

On a related note, did you hear about Troy Polamalu’s physical therapy that he believed in? Great client:stupid therapy/coach (for lolz go to youtube and search revolution physical therapy).
So yes, I can say I guy with that bio doesn’t know shit.
Feel free to show me gains/testimonies (not on CP’s website, from the actual source) from clients and I’ll shut my mouth.

There are successful coaches, who are famous and seasoned who don’t say stupid shit. You get a power trip at the top and you get shit on. I only comment on any of this so newbs stop following STUPID info from someone with big guns and a very pretty gym.

Did I miss anything?

[/quote]

I think shows how far behind you are in knowledge of current events.

Troy Polamalu using Platelet Rich Therapy for his injury might be space-age to the rest of us peons, but for pro athletes it’s more common than you think. Pro athletes also use hyberbaric chambers to promote accelerated recovery too, is that crazy ?

During my time in college football during the early 90’s, it was nothing special to see guys getting IV drips of fluid at halftime. Or taking ice baths following games and practices to help with recovery. This is common NOW, but doing it 20 years before it was mainstream means someone knew something that others did not.

Poliquin has been in the game for decades, and been doing it successfully. If you want to criticize him when you have no reasons to, since you said you have never tried any of his ideas yourself, makes you look downright stupid.

PS - pro athletes bank their lives (and their millions) on “being in the know”, so the idea that they would knowingly put their trust into a bullshitter makes no sense at all. [/quote]

You are mistaken on my interpretation of Troy… I was talking about the PT he was trying when he first got injured who made him walk on stilts, talked about his clients having as good vert jumps as pro basketball players and claimed his clients didn’t need to use weights to get better at squatting heavy weights. Check into the PT place I mentioned… not the plasma therapy he was going through, not at all I was talking about. I was talking about how Troy continued therapy with someone bc he believed it would help fix his injuries, which didn’t happen.

My point there was that the player entrusted a coach with his potential millions. I cannot tell you why people choose a certain coach, but I know damn good and well people in high places entrust other useless coaches with their livelihood. I see it in athletics a good amount, at the college level that you talk about, players follow blindly for many reasons.

“Poliquin has been in the game for decades, and been doing it successfully.”
Monetary success is usually the worst indicator of talent in this industry. I can think of a few more successful fads like Zumba, the shake weight, shitty xfit coaches and blind followers (like the one and only in my town)…

“If you want to criticize him when you have no reasons to, since you said you have never tried any of his ideas yourself, makes you look downright stupid.”
As stated before, I have read into Poli for years. He makes generic claims and adds so much shit to them that I can’t take anything seriously, even though he’s dead serious.
Yes, I will admit that he says things that are true, but most of which are common sense/knowledge. I would never send any clients or friends who are beginner or even intermediate to his site for the fact that the ballpark for BS that needs to be filtered is 50:50.

When was the last time you visited the Dominican Republic for a week or 2 to follow his recommendation and magically changed your body comp something like 15lbs? I have common sense and know that I shouldn’t eat like shit and should train hard, things he preaches. His cult following listens to the other word vomit he spews. You CAN’T call someone ahead of the curve if it’s half bs.
Man, all of you Poli nut lickers forget the dumb shit he says, throw it out and he doesn’t need to answer for it. So I’ll call you out on the cherry picking, care to explain for him then?

VT: Got it…You dont like him, never will. All my internet jacking off couldnt convince you other wise. I personally, have used BioSig on my self for 2 years now as well as some of his training programs and advice, Ive gotten great results. I expounded that knowledge to other clients, who got great results as well. I found other coaches, who have trained with Poliquin for years, who get amazing results.

Check out Clean Health in Aus. People who have trained under him and adopted and adapted his teachings have done incredibly well, not just for themselves but for their clients as well. Who have also gone on to train Prof. Athletes to better careers with an original starting point of Poliquin and all of his bullshit. You found a different “way,” congrats and I hope it is going well. I never argued the dude is not a nut, he is, he knows that, I have had words with him myself about it.

I know he catches a lot of shit about the Puerto Rican muscle gain trip of eating grassfed beef and turing into the hulk with Thor’s hammer for a dick or what ever the rumor. I too assumed bullshit, the guy is pretty weird after all, but then I had a coach show me actual pictures of him after the trip, it was weird, there was a huge difference. Whatever he did, fucking worked…what ever it may have been.

But I have also seen, in person, him say and do some outstanding shit. This is my opinion and I dont know everything. His information regarding cortisol timing and manipulation is pretty spot on for a majority but he does hold a lot back.

Most advice out there is do not raise cortisol post wod, except if it is during a multi event, in which case their are possible dosing procedures. This does not apply to everyone, we are all unique snow flakes. Some people can handle this spike, others are so fucking stressed that they shouldnt even be allowed to smell coffee. Stress is, IMO, the number one cause of most of the populations problems, even over shit foods. This is what I have seen in the real world as true.

Lets get back on subject. Hip hip

I think if you follow any strength coach or fitness guru for long enough, especially if you have the ability of hindsight and look back on their past ideas, you will find some crazy things. Louis Simmons said as much when asked about some of his contradicted past and present thoughts (cant find the exact quote). I also think it is foolish to dismiss everything someone says just because you don’t agree with some of it. I think the best coaches have become very good at looking at what others have done to advance training methodology and take what works, get rid of what doesn’t, and mix the new with the tried and true. And to be clear, I don’t consider myself a fan of strength coaches and I rarely if ever agree with everything one of them says. And probably if you ask them, they wouldn’t agree with some of the things that thought in the past anymore either.

[quote]Mdgray82 wrote:
On topic: caffeine has a half life of about 6 hours, so pre-workout caffeine means that post workout you still have a vast majority of the caffeine in your blood stream, which most likely means that pre-workout caffeine doesn’t kill gains…Take this one small step further and a cup of coffee after you lift is not going to kill you, especially assuming proper post-workout nutrition.[/quote]

I totally agree with you! On the other hand, there are so many guys that dont know anything about proper nutrition, caffeine, pwo meals and shakes and yet they are built as trucks!

I agree that for optimum results we want to seek optimum nutrition. But how much caffeine is going to harm as pwo is really queationable. I reckon just thinking about it raises cortisol more than having a cup of coffee pwo.

I believe that as long as we are regularly and heavy hitting the weights and having solid nutrition, we dont need to overthink and complicate things.

Cortisol is a catabolic stress-hormone that induces the break-down of proteins, glycogen, fat-storage.

So thibs and pol, are obviously right about cortisol.

The real question is, how much does one cup of coffee post-workout raise cortisol levels in a already caffeinated body, and how much will it prolong higher cortisol levels.

Kind of off topic, but I believe there was a study that had found a significant improvement in post-exercise soreness with cyclists who drank a coffee after a ride.

I dont have the details of the study, but Im just throwing this in here.

tweet

[quote]NikH wrote:
Cortisol is a catabolic stress-hormone that induces the break-down of proteins, glycogen, fat-storage.

So thibs and pol, are obviously right about cortisol.

The real question is, how much does one cup of coffee post-workout raise cortisol levels in a already caffeinated body, and how much will it prolong higher cortisol levels.[/quote]

The other question being, does the insulin response from post-workout nutrition counterbalance this response. I’m of the opinion that pw coffee doesn’t matter, though I think one could make the argument that it also depends on whether the person is caffeine naïve or not.

[quote]hipsr4runnin wrote:
VT: Got it…You dont like him, never will. All my internet jacking off couldnt convince you other wise. I personally, have used BioSig on my self for 2 years now as well as some of his training programs and advice, Ive gotten great results. I expounded that knowledge to other clients, who got great results as well. I found other coaches, who have trained with Poliquin for years, who get amazing results.

Check out Clean Health in Aus. People who have trained under him and adopted and adapted his teachings have done incredibly well, not just for themselves but for their clients as well. Who have also gone on to train Prof. Athletes to better careers with an original starting point of Poliquin and all of his bullshit. You found a different “way,” congrats and I hope it is going well. I never argued the dude is not a nut, he is, he knows that, I have had words with him myself about it.

I know he catches a lot of shit about the Puerto Rican muscle gain trip of eating grassfed beef and turing into the hulk with Thor’s hammer for a dick or what ever the rumor. I too assumed bullshit, the guy is pretty weird after all, but then I had a coach show me actual pictures of him after the trip, it was weird, there was a huge difference. Whatever he did, fucking worked…what ever it may have been.

But I have also seen, in person, him say and do some outstanding shit. This is my opinion and I dont know everything. His information regarding cortisol timing and manipulation is pretty spot on for a majority but he does hold a lot back.

Most advice out there is do not raise cortisol post wod, except if it is during a multi event, in which case their are possible dosing procedures. This does not apply to everyone, we are all unique snow flakes. Some people can handle this spike, others are so fucking stressed that they shouldnt even be allowed to smell coffee. Stress is, IMO, the number one cause of most of the populations problems, even over shit foods. This is what I have seen in the real world as true.

Lets get back on subject. Hip hip[/quote]

I asked for some sort of evidence. You have a personal account for one of his MANY lies, without anything to show anyone else for it.

The main thing that I keep asking for is proof, so far I’ve got no scientific evidence… which ppl keep claiming he has backed all his stuff up w science, where’s the research studies? Show me one.
I also don’t have any pseudo-science, either. Show me a before and after, or stats before and after working w him, anything really… so far all I see is a list of pplz names, a guru making claims and no results to show for it for anything.

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:

[quote]hipsr4runnin wrote:
VT: Got it…You dont like him, never will. All my internet jacking off couldnt convince you other wise. I personally, have used BioSig on my self for 2 years now as well as some of his training programs and advice, Ive gotten great results. I expounded that knowledge to other clients, who got great results as well. I found other coaches, who have trained with Poliquin for years, who get amazing results.

Check out Clean Health in Aus. People who have trained under him and adopted and adapted his teachings have done incredibly well, not just for themselves but for their clients as well. Who have also gone on to train Prof. Athletes to better careers with an original starting point of Poliquin and all of his bullshit. You found a different “way,” congrats and I hope it is going well. I never argued the dude is not a nut, he is, he knows that, I have had words with him myself about it.

I know he catches a lot of shit about the Puerto Rican muscle gain trip of eating grassfed beef and turing into the hulk with Thor’s hammer for a dick or what ever the rumor. I too assumed bullshit, the guy is pretty weird after all, but then I had a coach show me actual pictures of him after the trip, it was weird, there was a huge difference. Whatever he did, fucking worked…what ever it may have been.

But I have also seen, in person, him say and do some outstanding shit. This is my opinion and I dont know everything. His information regarding cortisol timing and manipulation is pretty spot on for a majority but he does hold a lot back.

Most advice out there is do not raise cortisol post wod, except if it is during a multi event, in which case their are possible dosing procedures. This does not apply to everyone, we are all unique snow flakes. Some people can handle this spike, others are so fucking stressed that they shouldnt even be allowed to smell coffee. Stress is, IMO, the number one cause of most of the populations problems, even over shit foods. This is what I have seen in the real world as true.

Lets get back on subject. Hip hip[/quote]

I asked for some sort of evidence. You have a personal account for one of his MANY lies, without anything to show anyone else for it.

The main thing that I keep asking for is proof, so far I’ve got no scientific evidence… which ppl keep claiming he has backed all his stuff up w science, where’s the research studies? Show me one.
I also don’t have any pseudo-science, either. Show me a before and after, or stats before and after working w him, anything really… so far all I see is a list of pplz names, a guru making claims and no results to show for it for anything.[/quote]

VT,

Here is an article from his website, and his references are cited at the bottom of the article.

I have used these principles myself and found great results.

VT: Sorry amigo, Im over it. Ive got finals and clients and things to do, job, relationship etc etc. Im not about to waste energy trying to convince some cat online of the un-convincible. As Poliquin says regarding all of the free information he puts out, “do the research yourself.” Good luck with your fitness and take care.