T Nation

Daily Coffee & Cortisol Issues


#1

Well, this has been an issue for me for a while, simply coz i love coffee.

Olympic coach Poliquin and people who practise bio-signature procedure strongly advocate zero coffee for the whole day after workouts. They are also of oppinion that coffee is very good for preworkout (along with green tea), and that you can have even 3 cups of coffee as lOng as it is before workout and before 2pm. Otherwise, coach Poliquin claims, if we have coffee post workout we can eliminate all the benefits of the workout. Hoppefully thats to harsh to say.

A lot of ppl o line dont seem to follow these guidelines and they are doing quite well. Do you guys take coffee in the hours post workout and what is your experience?


#2

I workout in the evening so it’s not a problem.


#4

[quote]gkeeper24 wrote:
Poliquin’s rationale is that coffee/caffeine raises cortisol. Cortisol pre workout is great. Cortisol post workout is bad. I personally avoid all stimulants post workout. However, if it doesn’t disturb sleep you’ll be fine having a 1-2 cups even post workout.[/quote]

Yeah but the Poliquin’s point is not in disrupting the sleeP, its smth different. He claims that after workout ur cortisol levels (catabolism hormone responsible for muscle loss) are high. Having coffe pwo additionaly raises cortisol levels which only makes it worse. He claims that u can lose all the benefits of a hard workout if u have a coffee after that.


#5

I will attest to personally having much poorer recovery from training if i have coffee or tea after my workouts. its especially noticeable if I do this several times/week

I personally never have caffeine of any kind after training anymore and i feel i get the best recovery this way.


#6

[quote]tork94 wrote:
I will attest to personally having much poorer recovery from training if i have coffee or tea after my workouts. its especially noticeable if I do this several times/week

I personally never have caffeine of any kind after training anymore and i feel i get the best recovery this way.[/quote]

Yeah but note that green tea is highly advised to have at any pert of the day, and even pwo. Even though green tea has some caffeine, it wont raise your cortisole levels. On the contrary, it brings ur cortisol down.

Green tea has some mild fat burning effects too so i have like 10-12 cups a day:). Tastes good as well, and since im a coffee addict and cant have it pwo, i just enjoy my tea without any limits.


#7

Dr. Poli is a dummy, do the opposite and you will be good. There are TONS of studies that show coffee/caffeine to have a very positive impact on performance… Just don’t have a ton before sleep, eat well and take fish oil and you’ll be good. Caffeine helps regulate insulin, including during post workout to help prevent fat storage in cells… Poli is usually off base, here especially.

Also, cortisol isn’t a bad thing. You are trying to get a whole system catabolism during/after workout essentially… you need to ruin muscle to rebuild, you will recover it over the next 48hrs, so don’t fuck it up the next 2 days and caffeine before, during, and after is just fine.


#8

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Dr. Poli is a dummy, do the opposite and you will be good. There are TONS of studies that show coffee/caffeine to have a very positive impact on performance… Just don’t have a ton before sleep, eat well and take fish oil and you’ll be good. Caffeine helps regulate insulin, including during post workout to help prevent fat storage in cells… Poli is usually off base, here especially.

Also, cortisol isn’t a bad thing. You are trying to get a whole system catabolism during/after workout essentially… you need to ruin muscle to rebuild, you will recover it over the next 48hrs, so don’t fuck it up the next 2 days and caffeine before, during, and after is just fine. [/quote]

Wow, opinion much?

Just take out all your Poliquin’s opinion, and you have a leg to stand on. An argument is not about putting someone down, it’s about making and proving your point.


#9

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Dr. Poli is a dummy, do the opposite and you will be good. There are TONS of studies that show coffee/caffeine to have a very positive impact on performance… Just don’t have a ton before sleep, eat well and take fish oil and you’ll be good. Caffeine helps regulate insulin, including during post workout to help prevent fat storage in cells… Poli is usually off base, here especially.

Also, cortisol isn’t a bad thing. You are trying to get a whole system catabolism during/after workout essentially… you need to ruin muscle to rebuild, you will recover it over the next 48hrs, so don’t fuck it up the next 2 days and caffeine before, during, and after is just fine. [/quote]

Id like to believe that, do you have any research papers that confirm that?

Ruining cells with caffeine/cortisol pwo is good for ur muscle? I always thought u need to bring cortidol down pwo asap.


#10

[quote]JFG wrote:

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Dr. Poli is a dummy, do the opposite and you will be good. There are TONS of studies that show coffee/caffeine to have a very positive impact on performance… Just don’t have a ton before sleep, eat well and take fish oil and you’ll be good. Caffeine helps regulate insulin, including during post workout to help prevent fat storage in cells… Poli is usually off base, here especially.

Also, cortisol isn’t a bad thing. You are trying to get a whole system catabolism during/after workout essentially… you need to ruin muscle to rebuild, you will recover it over the next 48hrs, so don’t fuck it up the next 2 days and caffeine before, during, and after is just fine. [/quote]

Wow, opinion much?

Just take out all your Poliquin’s opinion, and you have a leg to stand on. An argument is not about putting someone down, it’s about making and proving your point.

[/quote]

No, I can think for myself, and anyone who could would know that poliquin is a big bicep guru who doesn’t know a fucking thing.

I’d rather put someone down to have ppl realize he is an all around idiot… who might get something right once in a blue moon, as do most idiots.

I stated my facts


#11

[quote]Podgorica10 wrote:

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Dr. Poli is a dummy, do the opposite and you will be good. There are TONS of studies that show coffee/caffeine to have a very positive impact on performance… Just don’t have a ton before sleep, eat well and take fish oil and you’ll be good. Caffeine helps regulate insulin, including during post workout to help prevent fat storage in cells… Poli is usually off base, here especially.

Also, cortisol isn’t a bad thing. You are trying to get a whole system catabolism during/after workout essentially… you need to ruin muscle to rebuild, you will recover it over the next 48hrs, so don’t fuck it up the next 2 days and caffeine before, during, and after is just fine. [/quote]

Id like to believe that, do you have any research papers that confirm that?

Ruining cells with caffeine/cortisol pwo is good for ur muscle? I always thought u need to bring cortidol down pwo asap.[/quote]

You can’t really bring cortisol down immediately post workout, if you have a true, intense workout no amount of carbs/supps is going to kill the catabolic cortisol, the stress you placed on the body is going to outway most anything.

Ruining cells/muscle is not what I said… and why is everyone on the kill cortisol bandwagon? catabolism is the only way to burn fat, that’s part of the end goal for most at some point.

Research papers for caffeine helping workouts? seriously?


#12

There is some benefit with caffeine regarding multi-events.
Ultimately though there is a ton of research suggesting that you want to have a leveling off period regaring caffeine PWO. I usually stop after the workout and then 3-4 hours later I may have some green tea, worst case scenario I will have coffee at night, like tonight, if Im going out. I don’t think there is anything wrong with green tea and its effects. But this is coming from someone who can drink coffee and immediately take a nap.

VT: You can ad hom all day but until you have a client list and results even remotely close to what the “jack-ass-who-doesn’t-know-anything” you speak of, then you can talk. I have been using Poliquin methods for quiet a while, including BioSig cert, and yeah the gent does say some things that are unclaimed and very strange sounding but he has done a shit ton of positive work for S&C and general health.


#13

[quote]hipsr4runnin wrote:
There is some benefit with caffeine regarding multi-events.
Ultimately though there is a ton of research suggesting that you want to have a leveling off period regaring caffeine PWO. I usually stop after the workout and then 3-4 hours later I may have some green tea, worst case scenario I will have coffee at night, like tonight, if Im going out. I don’t think there is anything wrong with green tea and its effects. But this is coming from someone who can drink coffee and immediately take a nap.

VT: You can ad hom all day but until you have a client list and results even remotely close to what the “jack-ass-who-doesn’t-know-anything” you speak of, then you can talk. I have been using Poliquin methods for quiet a while, including BioSig cert, and yeah the gent does say some things that are unclaimed and very strange sounding but he has done a shit ton of positive work for S&C and general health. [/quote]

Well i agree with both of you guys. But honestly i think a lot of things thaat Poliquin says dont really make much sense (although no one can dispute him being a top coach with great results. For example, i dont like his idea about not counting calories, then he says u’ll lose all the benefits of hard workout if u have coffe after that (a lot of ppl dont know anything about nutrition, coffee etc and they are huge), having to eat every 2-3 hours or otherwise u’ll lose muscle (which is i think nonsense nowdays when its proven that even 24 h after ur last meal u have enough amino acids in ur blood from ur last meal), etc.

I read somewhere that influence of coffee on cortisol levels are negligeble, but not sure if its really true. I wann believe it is coz i love my coffee, and would like to have it all day long, but being obssessed over bb and nutrition i wanna avoid everything that can possibly impede my results.


#14

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:

Research papers for caffeine helping workouts? seriously?[/quote]

Actually I wouldn’t be that surprised

I figure the most harm caffeine could cause is sleep disturbance. If it were really practical to try micromanaging your cortisol levels that much then there’s lots of things you’d have to do, like never workout in the morning if you are going to work that day, don’t work out before visiting your inlaws, don’t workout until all your classes are finished for the day…


#15

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Dr. Poli is a dummy, do the opposite and you will be good. There are TONS of studies that show coffee/caffeine to have a very positive impact on performance… Just don’t have a ton before sleep, eat well and take fish oil and you’ll be good. Caffeine helps regulate insulin, including during post workout to help prevent fat storage in cells… Poli is usually off base, here especially.

Also, cortisol isn’t a bad thing. You are trying to get a whole system catabolism during/after workout essentially… you need to ruin muscle to rebuild, you will recover it over the next 48hrs, so don’t fuck it up the next 2 days and caffeine before, during, and after is just fine. [/quote]

Obviously Poliquin thinks it’s good for performance if he recommends it BEFORE the workout. I don’t see how it will make you recover better. Even Thibs has said to avoid caffeine after working out.


#16

Besides the tactical avoidance of heavy caffeine use (so green tea is advised PWO?) what strategies or supps can be used to keep cortisol at an ideal level PWO? Meditation I know, and do (Arnold said something about meditating upon the good vibes after a strenuous workout, both as meditation and to reinforce the positive behaviour of working out, and it’s very true).

I hears phospho-whatever serine is good, but heinously expensive? Any tips would be nice cos I tend to store fat in a way that, if Poliquin et all are to be believed, indicates cortisol-related storage patterns.


#17

[quote]MytchBucanan wrote:

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Dr. Poli is a dummy, do the opposite and you will be good. There are TONS of studies that show coffee/caffeine to have a very positive impact on performance… Just don’t have a ton before sleep, eat well and take fish oil and you’ll be good. Caffeine helps regulate insulin, including during post workout to help prevent fat storage in cells… Poli is usually off base, here especially.

Also, cortisol isn’t a bad thing. You are trying to get a whole system catabolism during/after workout essentially… you need to ruin muscle to rebuild, you will recover it over the next 48hrs, so don’t fuck it up the next 2 days and caffeine before, during, and after is just fine. [/quote]

Obviously Poliquin thinks it’s good for performance if he recommends it BEFORE the workout. I don’t see how it will make you recover better. Even Thibs has said to avoid caffeine after working out.[/quote]
Lol at the thibs comment, I won’t even get started on him.


#18

VT,

Have you personally tried any of Poliquin’s ideas yourself ?

I understand if you don’t understand them (shit, most people don’t understand Poliquin’s stuff but that is because he is so far ahead of the curve).

I have used Poliquin’s ideas for some time now, and have had my best gains and progress using them, irrelevant of the goal.

I wish I had access to his knowledge and supplements when I played football in college, I cannot even imagine how much better I would have been, seeing how our strength and conditioning coach was a marathon runner back them.

Try out some of his stuff on your own, then come back and make an opinion based on your experience.


#19

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:

[quote]MytchBucanan wrote:

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Dr. Poli is a dummy, do the opposite and you will be good. There are TONS of studies that show coffee/caffeine to have a very positive impact on performance… Just don’t have a ton before sleep, eat well and take fish oil and you’ll be good. Caffeine helps regulate insulin, including during post workout to help prevent fat storage in cells… Poli is usually off base, here especially.

Also, cortisol isn’t a bad thing. You are trying to get a whole system catabolism during/after workout essentially… you need to ruin muscle to rebuild, you will recover it over the next 48hrs, so don’t fuck it up the next 2 days and caffeine before, during, and after is just fine. [/quote]

Obviously Poliquin thinks it’s good for performance if he recommends it BEFORE the workout. I don’t see how it will make you recover better. Even Thibs has said to avoid caffeine after working out.[/quote]
Lol at the thibs comment, I won’t even get started on him.[/quote]

Well what does cortisol do? It makes the body store fat and eats muscle. How does that fit into recovery?


#20

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:
Dr. Poli is a dummy, do the opposite and you will be good. There are TONS of studies that show coffee/caffeine to have a very positive impact on performance… Just don’t have a ton before sleep, eat well and take fish oil and you’ll be good. Caffeine helps regulate insulin, including during post workout to help prevent fat storage in cells… Poli is usually off base, here especially.

Also, cortisol isn’t a bad thing. You are trying to get a whole system catabolism during/after workout essentially… you need to ruin muscle to rebuild, you will recover it over the next 48hrs, so don’t fuck it up the next 2 days and caffeine before, during, and after is just fine. [/quote]

I am pleased that I’m not the only person who thinks that Poliquin talks a lot of shit. Not always, but certainly more than half the time.


#21

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]VTTrainer wrote:

Research papers for caffeine helping workouts? seriously?[/quote]

Actually I wouldn’t be that surprised

I figure the most harm caffeine could cause is sleep disturbance. If it were really practical to try micromanaging your cortisol levels that much then there’s lots of things you’d have to do, like never workout in the morning if you are going to work that day, don’t work out before visiting your inlaws, don’t workout until all your classes are finished for the day…[/quote]

As far as I know, it has pretty much been proven that hormone fluctuations in the short term (such as around workouts and after caffeine etc.) do not have any reasonable effect on muscle/strength gain. I can remember reading a study on gh concentration during and shortly after training, and it was concluded that this had little to no effect on adaptation.
This sounds like the meal-timing myth again to me.