T Nation

Cytomel Tapering, Post Use Depression


#1

Just wanted to chuck some ideas out there and see if anyone else has had similar issues. My last cycle i used T3. I ran the T3 past the end of my cycle at 12.5mcg ED for an additional month before coming off. It's been 2 months since i stopped the T3 [3 months since last cycle] and I have had major depressive issues since.

Has anyone else had this? I friend who ran an almost identical cycle noted similar symptoms, and is coping with depression right now as well.

I've been searching for medical journals to help, but most are geared towards helping depression by administering a T3 regime.

For those curious, the T3 cycle was [by week]

12.5, 25, 50, 62.5 [4 weeks], 25, 12.5 [4 weeks]

cheers


#2

Hi Ironjoe,

This doesnt really surprise. Although I do not use thyroid meds for weight loss purposes, I am hypothyroid and use T3 for hormone replacement.

The problem is that thryoid funtion is inherently linked to adrenal functioning too. If you were to look at the inserts for the newer versions of levothryoxine and cytomel you should see a warning that adrenal functioning should be checked prior to treatment, or something to that effect. Its actually very common for people with poor adrenal reserves, due to years of being hypothyroid causing undue metabolic stress, to initiate treatment and for it to be pretty unsuccessful. In fact, when using T4, it is fairly common for people to present thyrotoxic symptoms off pretty minute doses due to poor adrenal reserves. Cortisol is needed for T3s affintity for receptor site binding to function properly. Cortisol also augments T3 stimulation of GH.

Think of the relationship between the two like this, if the thyroid provide metabolic energy adrenal functioning needs to be sufficient to handle it. When increasing your own thyroid hormone levels through supplementation, you place an abnormal load on the adrenal glands. Therefore its pretty easy to tap into your adrenal reserves. Its failry common to find patients on thryoid meds also having to use physiologic does of hydrocortisone in order for the thryoid meds to bind to the receptor sites sufficiently.

I would imagine that the supraphysiologic levels of T3 you took will have depleted your adrenal reserves and suppressed some of your natural GH secretion leading to you feeling pretty crap. Symptoms include

excessive fatigue and exhaustion
non-refreshing sleep
overwhelmed by or unable to cope with stressors
feeling rundown or overwhelmed
craving salty and sweet foods
you feel most energetic in the evening
a feeling of not being restored after a full night’s sleep or having sleep disturbances
low stamina, slow to recover from exercise
slow to recover from injury, illness or stress
difficulty concentrating, brain fog
poor digestion
low immune function
food or environmental allergies
premenstrual syndrome or difficulties that develop during menopause
consistent low blood pressure
extreme sensitivity to cold

(These were copy and pasted from some website)

You should also check your morning temps. If they are consistently low this could indicate adrenal stress.

You could look into taking a 24 hour salivary cortisol/dhea test to determine this quantitatively.

I would also reccomend the following though:

  1. High dose Vit C - 4g daily divided dose.
  2. B complex
  3. 600mg Magnesium Citrate at night (after 8pm) on an empty stomach
  4. Adrenal glandular supplements
  5. 7 keto dhea (possibly)

Conventional medicine is only just starting to catch on.


#3

lokk man anytime u jack up your t and stop u are going to have alood of estrogen coming your way.Take it from me get some tribullus and fast 6oxo works the best if you can find it. Good Luck


#4

I did andro years back what I just posted works milk thistle liguid prefarably is bestwatch your kidneys liver and thyroid ya cant buy em on ebay.


#5

[quote]Dave Rogerson wrote:
Hi Ironjoe,

This doesnt really surprise. Although I do not use thyroid meds for weight loss purposes, I am hypothyroid and use T3 for hormone replacement.

The problem is that thryoid funtion is inherently linked to adrenal functioning too. If you were to look at the inserts for the newer versions of levothryoxine and cytomel you should see a warning that adrenal functioning should be checked prior to treatment, or something to that effect. Its actually very common for people with poor adrenal reserves, due to years of being hypothyroid causing undue metabolic stress, to initiate treatment and for it to be pretty unsuccessful. In fact, when using T4, it is fairly common for people to present thyrotoxic symptoms off pretty minute doses due to poor adrenal reserves. Cortisol is needed for T3s affintity for receptor site binding to function properly. Cortisol also augments T3 stimulation of GH.

Think of the relationship between the two like this, if the thyroid provide metabolic energy adrenal functioning needs to be sufficient to handle it. When increasing your own thyroid hormone levels through supplementation, you place an abnormal load on the adrenal glands. Therefore its pretty easy to tap into your adrenal reserves. Its failry common to find patients on thryoid meds also having to use physiologic does of hydrocortisone in order for the thryoid meds to bind to the receptor sites sufficiently.

I would imagine that the supraphysiologic levels of T3 you took will have depleted your adrenal reserves and suppressed some of your natural GH secretion leading to you feeling pretty crap. Symptoms include

excessive fatigue and exhaustion
non-refreshing sleep
overwhelmed by or unable to cope with stressors
feeling rundown or overwhelmed
craving salty and sweet foods
you feel most energetic in the evening
a feeling of not being restored after a full night’s sleep or having sleep disturbances
low stamina, slow to recover from exercise
slow to recover from injury, illness or stress
difficulty concentrating, brain fog
poor digestion
low immune function
food or environmental allergies
premenstrual syndrome or difficulties that develop during menopause
consistent low blood pressure
extreme sensitivity to cold

(These were copy and pasted from some website)

You should also check your morning temps. If they are consistently low this could indicate adrenal stress.

You could look into taking a 24 hour salivary cortisol/dhea test to determine this quantitatively.

I would also reccomend the following though:

  1. High dose Vit C - 4g daily divided dose.
  2. B complex
  3. 600mg Magnesium Citrate at night (after 8pm) on an empty stomach
  4. Adrenal glandular supplements
  5. 7 keto dhea (possibly)

Conventional medicine is only just starting to catch on.[/quote]

Great post… :wink:


#6

Brook - Thanks, although looking at it now I don’t know how anyone could make sense of that English. Personally, I think that much of the ‘crash’ that people experience after using T3 is as much due to reduced adrenal output, as it is suppressed thyroid functioning.

I cant remember the exact study, I have it somewhere, that took a group of health young euthyroid males and gave them supraphysiological levels of T3; 75mcg, for a period of 6 weeks. The researches assessed several things throughout the study including BMR, which rose on average by about 500kcals a day if I remember rightly. Anyway, after the washout period thyroid function tests were performed and measured against baseline samples taken pre-study. All participants recovered.

Now I know lads that have taken less t3, for less time and suffered large crashes that persisted. The thyroid seems to be a fairly robust gland. The adrenals, particularly in people who exercise intensely, regularly and probably take additional stimulants to aide fat burning while existing on a kcalorie deficit - that most likely limits carbs (which reduces serotonin and increases catecholamine levels) - are bound to be stressed excessively.

Really, its not much of a surprise that people feel like shit really. But, with a well considered PCT I do think that much of this can be reduced.


#7

Sorry to hear this Iron. I just started 30mcg/d T3 along with 700mg/w test e and 3x10mg/d dbol.

How did you feel while on the T3?

Any chance the depression is related to the other compounds both you and your bud used on cycle. What kind of PCT did you do? Are you currently on cycle?


#8

Wow, that post is incredible. As for symptoms i had heavily reduced appetite [just coming back now, but 1gr of test/week has that effect on me] and my allergies really picked up. I have seasonal eczema from weather jumps and also dairy, i get it on my fingers. My fingers looked like i was grating them with a cheese grater everyday. That was handled by topicor but it was more persistent then usual.

I have been taking 5gr Vit C a day as well as Magnesium Citrate around 700mg and B complex 250mcg/day [injections], These are all part of my daily routine anyways…

For adrenal support I’d been taking tyrosine to help with the adrenals. I’ve had adrenal burn out before, but it was from long term ephedrine use [I used to be fat and addicted to ephed]

While on T3, I felt great, I swear gear works even better while using it. For PCT all i did was taper off down to a low dose, stasis, then drop it after a month.

As far as depression caused by the other stuff I dont think so. Test/tren/mast were all out of my system long before i started getting depressed. It was a lengthy cycle so it is possible, but the only “new factor” to the equation was the T3.

I’ve booked myself for some bloodwork on my thyroid in a few weeks with the good doctor. Hopefully he’ll have some answers as well

iron


#9

It is supposed to :wink:


#10

I was just curious because I recently abruptly stopped armour thyroid after using 60mg/d for a couple of years. I didn’t experience any hardship doing so. I had been prescribed the armour by a doc I was working with even though my thyroid numbers were “in range”, just not optimal. That doc subscribes to the idea that the best way to dose thyroid meds is gauging how you feel while on. If palpitations present, back off dosage. If you feel better, the dose is normally appropriate. He follows up with serum levels. T3 may be a different beast than combined T4 with a little T3 (like armour).

Good luck!! Hope you’re back at 100% in no time.


#11

It makes sense that if adding it to anti-depressants helps deppression, having low levels would induce depression, but you should be recovered by now.


#12

It makes sense that if adding it to anti-depressants helps deppression, having low levels would induce depression, but you should be recovered by now. I have had the opposite. When I went off T3 I recovered quickly and had rebound hyperthyroid symptoms for awhile. I didn’t understand it untill I read in Chemical Muscle Enhancement that this is common.