T Nation

Cytomel at 12.5mcg: When, How Long, Anabolics Needed??

I was wondering about the low dose cytomel cycle Bill Roberts recomends using. I have researched it but there are still some questions that have been unanswered. For instance, when should this dose be taken, I would think in the morning since this is when the t3 levels are highest to prevent inhibition. How long can you use this dosing schedule for? I have no preposed answer to this. Finally, must anabolics be taken with this dosing schedule. I would think that since the dose is so low that you may be able to get away with it but I’m not completely sure. Bill?

The time of day the half-tab is taken does not matter, because the half-life of T3 is about 3 days. So blood levels are steady with daily dosing, there are no significant dips or peaks.

Very definitely it can be productive without
using anabolics at the same time. More so
for some individuals than others, and moreso
for those who have been dieting for a few
weeks than for those who are on maintenance
calories but hoping to slowly lose fat by
adding a supplement without deliberate dieting (the thyroid hormone can accomplish
this in many cases though of course, careful
and smart dieting gives much faster results.)

One more thing you forgot to answer Bill, how long can this low does scheduling be done for before negative side effects are seen? Is there any thyroid shutdown at this level???

I want to get some blood tests on TSH performed after this protocol has been
followed for several months instead of
just a few weeks, so as to answer your question on
how long the 12.5 mcg dose can be used
without significant inhibition. But in
the meantime, since the dose is only half
of full replacement, I really doubt there
is an issue. Still, to be conservative I
recommend people cycle off anyway – but
I personally don’t.

Please post the results of you bood work, I am very interested in the results and I’m sure others are as well!!!

I didn’t realize that the half-life of cytomel
was 3 days. Bill: do you take it every day,
or do you just take it every 2 or 3 days due
to the long half life?

One interesting thing I've noticed about my use of thyroid drugs is that after I stop using them, my body upregulates to a higher level than I was at before using them. For example, my "normal" (ie pre-use) thyroid levels were "low-normal." When I stopped taking them, I had a little suppression, but not a lot. But when my body re-upregulated, my TSH, T3, T4, all went up into the "mid-normal" or "high-normal" ranges. Just thought you might find that useful

I take a half tab every day. Taking a drug
only once every half life – e.g. allowing
three days to go by because the half life
is three days – is not at all optimal
because it lets levels fall by 50%. Taking
only every other day would still let levels
fall enough to be quite significant.

BTW, this is something to generally watch
out for with prescription pharmaceuticals.
Doctors and pharmaceutical companies believe
with all their heart (and on average, correctly!) that patients are too stupid,
worthless, and irresponsible to take a drug
say 4 or 5 times a day just because that would
be the optimal way to take it. So if they
can get adequate results at all with once
a day dosing or twice a day, that’s what
the label recommendation will be even if
it is much less than optimal due to the
half life being short.

I’m not kidding, I’ve seen once a day dosing
for a product with a 3 hour half life, and it was a product which works better with consistent levels. The effect is VERY compromised, but nonetheless that’s the dosing
pattern recommended due to the “patient compliance” issue.

Moral of story? Ask your pharmacist the half life, and if the half life is short, then
smaller, more frequent doses (same total
per day) can be expected to work better and be safer (if safety is an issue with the particular drug.) You’ll have
optimal levels all the time, as opposed to
sometimes too much, sometimes just right,
and sometimes too low.

OK, I’ll probably get some heat for this but here it goes:

I don’t think 12.5mcg per day is enough to
do much for most people (sorry Bill). I am
finding that most men don’t see decent results
until they hit 50-75mcg per day (maybe less,
25-50mcg if used with MD-6 or ECA or clen).

I have one guy who started at 25mcg and has worked his way up to 100mcg per day with no clinically visible ill effects (I am sure a lab test will reveal diminished TSH for sure).

But so what? TSH levels seem to bounce back
after a few weeks post cycle.

I was wrong about Cytomel permanently messing people up and we all were. I am man enough to admit my error publically. I listed to a certain "guru" who was my mentor (and who was wrong about MANY other things too).

If you're going to use Cytomel, I suggest you consider using more than 12.5mcg unless you want to be on it forever to see any fat loss.

And yeah, T-3 eats muscle as well as fat so a good AAS or Androsol is a MUST!!!

–Brock

Well, Brock, I’ve had quite a few people use
the 12.5 mcg, I use it myself, and it definitely is a big difference compared to no thyroid. And you can lose fat about as fast
as you can with a ton of thyroid. As you know,
diet and to a lesser extent exercise are
the real keys, and you can lose fat fast
with NO added thyroid. You don’t lose way
more fat, like 5 lb a week instead of 3 lb,
or 4 lb instead of 2 lb, by abusing thyroid.

Thyroid abuse is for guys who don’t want
to pay attention to their diet, IMO, and
even then, the guy who pays attention to his
diet and uses light thyroid will do better
than the thyroid abuser who is less careful
with diet.

Yes, it does seem that the dangers of
suppression were overclaimed in bodybuilding,
but I’ve seen the fat rebound after
discontinuing heavy thyroid use: it does
exist, but does not exist, it seems so
far, with the 12.5 mcg dosing.

Besides this, the 12.5 mcg dosing gives
no adverse side effects at all (actually,
a couple of guys have had light side effects
the first few days though) whereas heavy
thyroid use producing grossly supraphysiological levels (e.g., anything
substantially over 25 mcg/day) most certainly
gives adverse side effects.

So why accept all that crap for little real
benefit? If you lose fat fast and easily with just 12.5 mcg/day, why use more?

Answer from most bodybuilders: cause more is better and I like being careless with my diet!

Well, Brock, I’ve had quite a few people use
the 12.5 mcg, I use it myself, and it definitely is a big difference compared to no thyroid. And you can lose fat about as fast
as you can with a ton of thyroid. As you know,
diet and to a lesser extent exercise are
the real keys, and you can lose fat fast
with NO added thyroid. You don’t lose way
more fat by abusing thyroid , like losing 5 lb a week on the same diet that would have given
a 3 lb loss with 12.5 mcg.

Thyroid abuse is for guys who don’t want
to pay attention to their diet, IMO, and
even then, the guy who pays attention to his
diet and uses light thyroid will do better
than the thyroid abuser who is less careful
with diet.

Yes, it does seem that the dangers of
suppression were overclaimed in bodybuilding,
but I’ve seen the fat rebound after
discontinuing heavy thyroid use: it does
exist, but does not exist, it seems so
far, with the 12.5 mcg dosing.

Besides this, the 12.5 mcg dosing gives
no adverse side effects at all (actually,
a couple of guys have had light side effects
the first few days though) whereas heavy
thyroid use producing grossly supraphysiological levels (e.g., anything
substantially over 25 mcg/day) most certainly
gives adverse side effects.

So why accept all that crap for little real
benefit? If you lose fat fast and easily with just 12.5 mcg/day, why use more?

Answer from most bodybuilders: cause more is better and I like being careless with my diet!

Thyroid is NOT like anabolic steroids. Take
high supraphysiological doses of anabolic steroids,
and you can get your physique someplace
you could not get it with low doses. This
is not true for thyroid! You can get every
bit as ripped on 12.5 mcg/day as on 200 mcg/day. So what is the point of the abuse?
It’s not a lot faster, doesn’t get
you anywhere further, and has more adverse
side effects. Not a winning plan IMO.

This is a very interesting discussion. Brock, time for a retort.

Steve, I don’t think Brock and I factually
disagree, except he probably has not been
working with anyone at 12.5 mcg/day and I
in turn only wind up working with people
who are using doses like 50 mcg/day if they
insist on it (which some do) and that’s a
lesser number than what Brock works with.

It all comes down to where you want to be
on the benefits vs. side effects scale.
I see the benefits as still being great
at 12.5 mcg, and the reduction in side
effects compared to higher doses well worth
the I think unimportant difference in fat
gain rate (important only if you want to
be careless with your diet, in my opinion.)
Brock likes getting the extra effect and
feels the side effects are not that bad and
are worth it. Not really any more facts to
discuss on the matter, I think, just a
difference of where we want to be on that scale.

And if the person I were advising were say
a high-level competitive bodybuilder 8 weeks
out from a show, and using GH and steroids
as well of course, you’d find my advice
identical to Brock’s! I wouldn’t be recommending 12.5. mcg/day in that scenario. But most of our readers, and most guys that I advise, are not in that situation.