T Nation

Cycling and Inhibition

Pharma
#1

I have a theory - it is simply based on the fact that the more cycles that people seem to run, the less likely they are to recover well, or at all in some cases.

So based on that i would like to hear from you IF you cover the following criteria:

You currently cycle.
A) You have run more than 5 but less than 10 cycles.
B) You have run more than 10 but less than 20 cycles.
C) You have run more than 20 cycles.

And if you could provide the following details:

Which of the above groups you fall into (A, B or C).
How old you are.
If you recover between cycles.
If you have noticed a drop in recovery ability, and how many cycles that took.
If you use TRT bridges/B+C then how many cycles had you run before you realised this was necessary (ie. recovery was too hard/not possible).
If you feel your HPTA ‘strength’ or ability to recover from full suppression is particularly stronger or weaker naturally.

Of course there are many variables that would be necessary to make this a more scientific study, and it is not supposed to be. I just wonder how many cycles it generally takes for a user to notice a drop in recovery ability - or if it even works like this. i am willing to wager that of those who have run ‘x’ amount of cycles - they have less ability to recover than those who have run less cycles.

This however could of course be due to age - as generally those who have done more will be older… and also drug preferences, length and dose of cycles, etc. but it is an interesting basic discussion i hope.

So for me:-

(Very approximately) Group A.
29 years old.
No recovery these days - TRT bridge/B+C.
Noticed a drop in recovery ability after approx. ~4 full cycles.
Began using TRT bridges after approx. ~6-8 full cycles.
I feel that my HPTA gave up fairly fast compared to many who cycle. Maybe due to my fondness of Nandrolone in the early days.

:wink:

#2

Group C. However if counting only cycles of 6 weeks or longer, then group B.

47 years old.

Recovery as easy and fast as ever. Just no issues.

Have used light Masteron bridges a couple of times, and morning-only orals bridges, but not out of need, just for extra and/or experimentation. Doing so didn’t affect later recovery ability.

No way of knowing if I have a natural gift in the recovery department or whether I am about average. About average is more likely, but there’s no saying for sure.

#3

Interesting thanks. i knew you cycled and recovered - and am glad you popped in.

As for ‘knowing’ your recovery ability - that question is simply born out of believing that the human being has an inherent ability to self diagnose (to a ball park degree of course).
When i was doing Injury pre/re-hab, i made it a habit to always ask the client - at the end of the consult - what they thought the injury was.
Their subjective POV was always useful and 9/10 in the ball park (sprain, strain, even impingement). The people who had no clue would just not say - as they genuinely didn’t know. They were also often those who had little background in physiology/kinesiology, etc. (Civilians).

Hopefully a few will pipe up and it may provide enough of a pattern to warrant doing a full study questionnaire which i’ll write up.

What do you think your good recovery is down to? I suspect it is having a deep understanding of what your body is going through. This will give you a better stance on the waiting periods of recovery, the best drugs to use and when to support said recovery.

i appreciate you say you have average recovery - and this may be true, but do you agree that for the most part, the general run of the mill, all-garden enhanced trainee will be experiencing some form of suppression for longer between cycles after running 20+ cycles? i do (clearly) and i also believe it is due to either ignorance in PCT/cycling, impatience in recovery or outside pressures, or age.

What kind of weekly dosages would you average? And what length cycles do you do for the most part these years?
From your post i am assuming you may run a fair amount of 2weekers, is this the main plan ATM?

Cheers :wink:

#4

The consistently good recovery may be due to the facts that:

I have never gone over 10 weeks and even that only once. Generally 8 weeks is my limit.

I have never used Deca or EQ and don’t ever wish to. Nor Nilevar either (thank goodness that one is gone, or at least I think it is.)

I have never allowed a cycle to end with long-acting drugs but have always had them end sharply with short-actings for fast transition to recovery.

On whether recovery for others slows down at or past the 20 cycle point: I really don’t know, because no one I ever did consults for ever did more than a few cycles with me, and most certainly not anything remotely approaching 20. And I never heard back from anyone years later with such an update. So I just don’t know.

I don’t tend to think that there’s a “counter” going in the hypothalamus or pituitary or something being cumulatively degraded, at least not when these are not put into a coma, so to speak. While I don’t know the mechanism, I wouldn’t be surprised if repeatedly putting them into a coma, figuratively speaking, might cumulatively make things worse and worse. If so that would fit in with your suggestions.

Those following my methods who didn’t have recovery problems already, going into it, always had fast, non-problematic recoveries.

I have until lately always used at least a gram per week unless it was trenbolone/Dianabol in which case the total was often only 700 mg/week, but with the potency of trenbolone I think that’s fair to call equivalent to most gram per week cycles.

Lately I have used just 50 mg/day TA and HCG with peptides and been pleased with that. But that is new to me.

I’ve probably split my time “on” about equally between 2 week cycles and 6-8 week cycles. It depends on the training plan. Lately it has made more sense with the training to have 8 weeks or so of “help” rather than breaking it up.

#5

[quote] Brook wrote:
I have a theory - it is simply based on the fact that the more cycles that people seem to run, the less likely they are to recover well, or at all in some cases.

So based on that i would like to hear from you IF you cover the following criteria:

You currently cycle.
A) You have run more than 5 but less than 10 cycles.
B) You have run more than 10 but less than 20 cycles.
C) You have run more than 20 cycles.

And if you could provide the following details:

Which of the above groups you fall into (A, B or C).
How old you are.
If you recover between cycles.
If you have noticed a drop in recovery ability, and how many cycles that took.
If you use TRT bridges/B+C then how many cycles had you run before you realised this was necessary (ie. recovery was too hard/not possible).
If you feel your HPTA ‘strength’ or ability to recover from full suppression is particularly stronger or weaker naturally.

Of course there are many variables that would be necessary to make this a more scientific study, and it is not supposed to be. I just wonder how many cycles it generally takes for a user to notice a drop in recovery ability - or if it even works like this. i am willing to wager that of those who have run ‘x’ amount of cycles - they have less ability to recover than those who have run less cycles.

This however could of course be due to age - as generally those who have done more will be older… and also drug preferences, length and dose of cycles, etc. but it is an interesting basic discussion i hope.

For me;

Depends on what you call a “cycle” I would call it group “A” as I ran less than 10 cycles before I started bridging/HRT.

-28 years old

-I don’t come off, prescribed HRT

-My levels were very low before I ever started. Had a blood test done when I was 17 and didn’t know anything, test levels were in the low 300’s. So even after my first 12 week cycle with full PCT, I crashed hard and recovery sucked (at 23yrs old). Second cycle I used P-22’s taper and Adex method and it worked much better, kept more and it was not as rough. Still sucked however.

-After my 4th cycle, I pretty much stayed on. I ran 200mgs every 7 days for about a year then came off for 6 months for get blood work done so I could go on HRT. Blood work was in the mid 250’s.

I am probably an outlier with the low starting levels but wanted to chime in. Hopefully some others will too.

Monopoly

#6

Uh…hm… No problemo…! lol

Monopoly - your (very well camouflaged) post is helpful IMO - albeit not surprising. It is helpful in that it backs up the belief (held by me - at least) that if one has low Test levels to start with, they will struggle to recover to even that low level of production after enduring suppression.

That said, this is speculative. It could be that the levels DO recover to the same as previously attained BUT from the contrast of having low levels to very high… having to resume back to the low level again is a real eye-opener, making a previously sufficient level nowhere near enough any more.

A lot like dropping from 120mph to 30mph. 30mph is plenty to get around and will see you fine for a long time, but once you go to 120mph, you wont be content travelling at 30mph - at least not until the memories of the faster speeds possible, have been given time to dissipate…

This is where i am going with the age thing (although the mighty BR is proving this incorrect as far as he is concerned at least) - that as one gets older, natural test levels decline - and cycling for those men is often a short lived experience before TRT is begun. This is just the observation of mostly online users however.

Now, is this becase they wold have gone on TRT anyway, or have they expedited the therapies beginning? Or have they simply had a taste in the fast lane (endocrinologically(sp?) speaking) and now and have seen quite the severity of the deficit since cycling?

I guess this is all speculative without proper scientific testing… As usual i talked myself out of a thread…! lol

#7

I am 27 with a few injectable cycles + oral cycles to date. I have used stanazolol, dbol, test-e, eq. I haven’t experienced any recovery issues. My free-t is pretty high naturally, it peaked in my late teens, but I felt the androgenic effect of natty test slowly built up from 20, and still building. The aggressiveness, chest hair, desire to breed (not just high libido) didn’t come until I was 25. It’s just a genetic thing, i know some people mature really early.

Now not long ago, i read a paper about the correlation between early puberty, menopause, and height. And the studie showed that if a female started ovulation early, then she is likely to be shorter (growth plate closes quicker) and she is likely to reach menopause earlier. This not really that suprising. I wonder if it is the same for men (very likly).

Also, a studie showed that by giving male replacement level of exo-T (no HCG) periodically, natty test production can be preserved, so that test subject can still out put decent amout of natty test when they are in the middle ages. They were given test-e as replacement, and no more than 3 months at a time I think. Sorry, i can’t remember the reference for it.

SO, this got me thinking, since total testosterone production is finite over a lifetime. if we do light and short cycles of AAS, where HPTA is not seriously supressed, teste are in a “suspended state” (but not shutdown like a liquidated and vacated factory). THen we can postpone the andropause, so to speak. (BR is doing pretty well) HCG in this case is like a double edged sword.

For this to work, we can’t use HCG. THe cycle can’t be too long, to limit testicular atrophy. and we can’t use long acting and/or supressive AAS. No deca for sure. 2 week cycles and 6 week primo / prop/ masteron seem to be good candidates.

#8

A lot of people think “shutdown is shutdown”, regardless of dosage. I think this is simply not true. WHen someone is on 1.5 gram combined AAS per week (e.g 500 test, 400deca, 600 EQ), for 16 weeks. The body knows you are introducing massive amount of exo hormones. AS you go into the cycle,SHBG is getting up there, so is cortisol. 2 weeks of waiting peroid + 4 weeks PCT simply doesn’t cut it. It will probably take 6 months for the body to fully recover, if not longer. THe average user is not that patient. So, this all eventually lead to inhibition and self-prescribed HRT.
I am not patient either, but I’d like to think ahead a bit. I don’t want to be on HRT when I am 30. AFter a 10-week cycle, I spend about 10 weeks in recovery mode, and I add another 10 weeks for normalisation purpose. The psychological addition of AAS is hard to kick. SO it wasn’t long for me to switch to short cycles.

This is my current PED regime
2 week veterinary muscle stimulant + 2 week AAS (dbol,winstrol,suspension,prop) + 2 week peptide and/or CNS stimulant + 2 week off. My PED is integrated to my trianing program, 2 week engergy system work + 2 week high volume + 2 week high load + 2 week deload.

#9

[quote]mephistopheles wrote:
SO, this got me thinking, since total testosterone production is finite over a lifetime. [/quote]

Well of course in the literal sense the amount of testosterone produced by an individual will not be an infinite number, or for that matter, an exceedingly large number such as 1000 kilos.

But I tend to think your meaning was that there is only some fixed amount that will be produced over a lifetime, and the faster that is used up, the sooner the non-availability; or if there are periods of non-production, that will extend the possibilities of later production.

I know of no evidence that this is the case and don’t think it is.

#10

BR, it’s all speculation. BUt it boils down to fundamental question: Is the Universe deterministic?

#11

I dont think it has anything to do with the Universe - and i believe in such things - i believe it is simply to do with how efficient or ‘good’ the HPTA is at producing and secreting test, coupled with AR sensitivity, Myostatin Inhibition, aromatase activity and 5ar activity and SHBG levels.

These variables - and likely more - determine the amount of free or total test there is and how it exerts its action.

I like the idea however, but i am not convinced it is the case either…