excellent very informative, many thanks to OP for posting.
Hey Guys,
I haven’t abandoned the thread. Just busy for a bit. I will be back with part 3 soon.
I’m really quite interested in the next part since I’m running an 8 weeker right now…
Whens part 3 coming?
Cheers
I know Furious is busy, but for all the new posters up there who apparently have the Search function disabled, enjoy…
I will be back soon guys, sorry about the delay. just in the process of going through a move so I have been pretty tied up but things are startin to settle down a little. my first order of business is to get signed up at a new gym and get back to training and then I will continue the thread.
Very interesting thread, thanks.
Ok, back to business on this…
PART III - MEDIUM LENGTH CYCLES (6-8 Weeks)
WHO
Medium length cycles seem to be favoured for 2 reasons.
-
Cutting/lean mass cycles
Used in a cutting cycle the user can attain very good dieting results with the aid of the gear over just 6-8 weeks of hard work. -
Blast cycles
Used either on their own or as part of a contiuous cycle
blast cycles use very high doses for a short period to minimize the negative effects of the high dose.
Because of the short duration the compounds used for both are often short acting injectables and orals.
PROS
-
Optimal Muscle Gain
The 6-8 week period is optimal for muscle gain with shorter esters/orals (remember they kick in after 3-4 days rather than 3-4 weeks so gains start almost immediately)because this time period is generally the area where gains begin to diminish and shutdown becomes more severe so at this point it is benificial for the user to clear the drugs out of the system and return to normal so that another cycle can be run and more gains can be realized. With time on equal to time off the user can fit in about 3 cycles a year. -
Limiting Duration
Limiting time of the cycle cuts down on the negative sides (BP, gyno, liver tox, etc which become greater risks with extended timelines). The suppression is of course not as bad as a 10-12 week cycle but unless you are using very mild compounds shutdown is still going to occur. In reality this may just mean a little shorter PCT or a little smoother recovery because LH and FSH levels will bounce back a little quicker. -
HCG during the cycle
The use of HCG during the cycle to maintain baseline testicular function now becomes a very useful tool. Because the use is restricted to only 6-8 weeks LH and FSH should return fairly quickly and as long as HCG doses are kept to physiological levels (say 250iu E3D) then desensitizing of the lydig cells should be minimal. PCT in this case would just consist of a few weeks of Clomid or Nolva starting 3-5 days after the last injection.
CONS
-
Limited compound selection
The drawback is you need to get in all the gains you can in only 6-8 weeks. For this reason longer (enth, cyp, deca, undeca) esters don’t make a lot of sense since they are really only kicking in around week 3 or later so this restricts us to (mostly) just short esters. -
Shutdown
Unless HCG is used during the cycle shutdown is (still) all but guaranteed unless using very mild compounds at low doses. This means that PCT is still necessary.
PRIMARY COMPOUND
Test Prop is usually the main compound for 6-8 week cycles for the below reasons:
- It works well
- The anabolic/androgenic ratio is balanced
- Libido is enhanced
- The user feels great
- It can be used for cutting or blasting
- It is fast acting
The only real drawbacks with Prop are of course the usual Test side effects and the pain (literally) of injections. Test Prop tends to be a more painful injection because of the high BA content and it needs to be shot ED or at least EOD so this is an issue with some users.
Typical prop doses are in the range of 50-300mg/d (with users simply looking for a little help to retain muscle mass while dieting at the low end and experienced bodybuilders at the high end).
The deviations from this strategy would be:
-
if HCG is being used throughout
With this strategy it becomes realistic to use other compounds as the primary because the user’s natural baseline test levels will be maintained by the HCG. This means a stack like Tren and Winny could be used. -
This is part of a continuous cycle where the user is already running Test Enth or Cyp as the main compound so they would just up the dose for the blast period and add in any secondary compounds.
-
If only mildly suppressive compounds are being used (DBol, Var, and Primo are the best options) where endogenous test levels won’t bottom out that hard during the cycle.
- DBol only cycles would be around 20-100mg/d (even up to 100mg/d it only decreases endogenous test to about 40% of normal and doesn’t have a huge impact on LH or FSH) so this actually becomes realistic for a 6 week cycle…a great deal of the gains will be water weight though.
-Var only cycles would be around 40-100mg/d…even less suppressive than DBol (the gains wouldn’t be nearly as impressive as DBol but much drier/more permenant), it also has reported fat burning properties so it would be another good inclusion to simply maintain muscle mass on a strict diet. Perhaps good as well for an athlete looking to add a bit of strength while maintaining a weight class.
- Primo only cycles would be around 350-600mg/w (split into E3D injections)…it’s use during a strict diet would help keep muscle mass and have some other positive effects on health/immune system but would likely cause suppression at the high end dose when it is really starting to provide benifits in terms of strength and lean mass. It would also have to be used for a minimum of 8 weeks and even that is likely a little too short.
SECONDARY COMPOUNDS
Pretty much any oral steroid or short acting injectable out there will work. The most common secondary compounds used in stacks are DBol, Drol, Var, Winny, Nandrolone (NPP only), Tren (Ace only), Mast (prop only), and rarely Primo.
CUTTING or LEAN MASS - adding strength/burning fat
Tren, Mast, Primo, and Winny have already been discussed and have the same use in a 6-8 week cycle so I will focus on Var and NPP.
- Var is a 17 alpha alkalated oral that adds a strength without much water retention or size. There are minimal sides - no estrogen issues, no hairloss, and even minimal suppression of endogenous test. This means no ancilliary compounds needed and possibly not even PCT. It also seems to have added benifits of aiding in healing and fatloss. Though the gains from Var are very small they are very easily maintained as is the fat loss.
It’s actions are mostly non-AR mediated (anabolic) even though it does bind fairly strongly to the AR. Var is of course hepatoxic because of the 17aa but much less so than DBol, Drol, or Winny even at higher doses. It’s use should be limited in length but 6-8 weeks should have minimal impact.
A Var only cycle as discuss above would be in the range of 40-100mg/d. This would produce a mildly suppressive cycle. If stacking it with other compounds (where suppression is already a done deal) it could be used in slightly higher doses (60-150mg/d). It would need to be used in the higher range to “feel” it if used with stronger compounds like test prop.
I personally think the best use for is in a mild cycle where suppression is avoided and gains can be easily kept. This will not produce huge results but will keep steady gains coming.
- NPP is the short estered cousin of Deca and has many of the same actions (so I won’t go into too much detail) but seems to be a bit weaker in all aspects (less mass, less strength, less water, less supression). It is fairly mild in terms of sides and doesn’t hold nearly as much water so it’s use in a cutting cycle is possible and it seems the gains are more easily maintained (but this may just be due to the reduced water retention). It’s generally used as a secondary to Test to add a bit of anabolic properties and aid the joints a bit.
Typical NPP dose would be equal to or less than that of the test dose being run with the average in the range of 50-200mg EOD.
BLASTING - strength and size
DBol and Drol have already been discussed and their use in a 6-8 week cycle is pretty much the same as a kickstart that just lasts a few weeks longer. Otherwise the same drugs as above in the cutting section would be used but the diet and training would be altered to match the goals so I will leave them.
STACKING
Same guidelines still remain for stacking (AR with non-AR mediated or combo or Test/19Nor/DHT). Due to the shorter length of the cycle the overall dose of the stack can be bumped up a bit but it will largely be based on tolerance of the user.
The big difference would be the fact that orals can be used either alone or stacked through the whole length of the cycle. Stacks of orals become a possibility (such as Drol/Winny) where an oral only cycle can have both a non-AR and AR mediated compound. I still think that injectables are the way to go over orals in a 6-8 week cycle because of hepatoxicity (with the exception of maybe anavar) but out of convenience or because of fear/incompetence with injecting it is an option.
ANCILLIARY COMPOUNDS
Ancilliary compounds used are the same as those used for 10-12 week cycles. The duration obviously isn’t long enough for the fat loss benifits of HGH so this would probably be run through the year rather than just on cycle. The addition of Clenbuterol and or T3/T4 would possibly be used as well in a more advanced user.
PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER
So what would a sample 6-8 week cycle look like. Again I am not saying anyone should do this just that it would be a common protocol.
MILD ORAL
W 1-6 DBol 10mg 3x/D or Var 20mg 3x/d
MILD CUTTING CYCLE
W 1-6 Primo 200mg E3D
W 1-6 Winny 25mg/D
W 9-12 Tribulus
ORAL STACK
W 1-6 Drol 50mg2x/d and Winny 25mg 2x/d
PCT
W 7-9 Clomid or Nolva
MODERATE LEAN MASS
W 1-8 Test Prop 100mg EOD
W 1-8 Tren Ace 75mg EOD
W 1-8 Mast Prop 50mg EOD
W 1-9 Adex 0.25mg EOD
W 2-8 HCG 250iu E3D
PCT
W 9-12 Nolva or Clomid
BLAST
W 1-8 Test Cyp 150mg E3D (as during normal TRT or cruise)
W 1-8 Test Prop 200mg ED
W 1-8 NPP 100mg ED
W 1-8 Adex 0.5mg ED
W 9 resume normal TRT or cruise cycle doses
Again these are just examples but it should give you an idea of how it works.
So if we can get this thread stickied anyone will pretty much have a complete guide at the top of the forum as to what to do in a given situation regarding AAS…
bump
Great addition, Furious. That was some nice reading, and definitely would be useful for first timers.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
So if we can get this thread stickied anyone will pretty much have a complete guide at the top of the forum as to what to do in a given situation regarding AAS…
bump[/quote]
What he said
That’s the goal. I am hoping to increase the knowledge of the newbies with a pretty short and succinct guide to cycles so that they are constructing cycles that make sense instead of 6 week cycles of Deca with a test frontload.
Rather than get this stickied I am likely going to just transplant each of the posts over to the already sticked ‘newbie cycle planning’ thread because it is basically the same topic.
Nice info. Great work Furious.
Only problem with posting it in the Steroid Newbie Thread is the fact that it’s a bajillion pages long so it will be hard to find for other newbs just getting here.
If we could get it stickied It would be blatantly obvious and short and sweet.
EDIT–my bad, the “cycle planning” stickie is short enough to see the info pretty fast. I thought you meant the other one.
no worries.
like i said before i think having them both sticked is a little redundant. I’d rather have them both in the same place.
Bump
Waiting with much anticipation for the short cycles section…
Just saw the transplant…I’ll check there.
Great work FG, btw…it’s nice to have so much stuff condensed nicely into this format…
Thanks
cant wait for part 4. thats good stuff
[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
PROS
It is believed that longer cycles will result in more perminent gains because:
- The body has more time to adapt to the new muscle mass…this point is very debatable but the general idea is that the body has time to adjust the new ‘set point’ of mass. How it does this is not fully known and may be total speculation…I believe it has to do with satellite cells which will be discussed in more detail later.
- There is more time during the cycle to build muscle tissue. At some point (which varies from user to user but are generally around the 2-3 month mark with long esters) gains begin to diminish such that eventually little to no further gains are seen and the continued use is simply maintenance of the existing muscle. However with very long cycles some users are able to make continued gains either through very strict training and diet or the addition of peptides.
Often times brief periods of high doses (blasting) are employed to see continued gains followed by long periods of low to moderate use (cruising). This allows users to break through plateaus that are reached when gains diminish to the point of little to no growth.
.[/quote]
Great Post! Another good reason for a longer cycle is to stay competitive. In order to keep making strength or size gains and maintain them year round you need to stay on a steady dose. Otherwise you will be up and down year round making it hard to peak for multiple competitions in a year and stay at the top of your game.
Hey guys, this thread has been moved over to the newbie cycle guide thread that is now stickied.