T Nation

Cycle Help


#1

I'm getting pre-cycle bloods today. Goals of the cycle are to increase strength as much as possible, and to decrease recovery time to allow for more frequent/more intense training sessions.

Cycle:
1-12: 250mg test cyp E3D. Front loading, first 2 doses are 500mg, rest are 250mg. Used 6 days as the cyp half life
1-4: 100mg Anavar ED (or 50mg Winny ED if I can't find good var)
8-12: 500IU HCG E3D
1-14: 12.5mg Aromasin ED

PCT WK 15-23
15-23: Tapering down aromasin dosage
Nolva 40/20/20/20/20/20/20/10

I'm still not 100% on the HCG use. I'm thinking of running 500IU/Week in weeks 3-12, but I'm not sure.

A lot of you guys probably won't like my PCT, but I arrived here because I don't see how keeping estrogen levels as low as possible throughout PCT could be a disadvantage. I am all ears if someone has a reason why I would want to allow potential estrogen conversion in my system during PCT.

I got started on this thought process from reading this thread: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/thoughts_on_planning_pct


#2

I believe the reason not running AI during PCT is that because the test should be cleared from your system so there will be nothing aromatizing. AI would run your e2 levels into ground which isn’t good either.

Running AI in between last injection and PCT is important though because there is still test in your system…

If i’m wrong please correct me, but that’s what I have understood from my research on the topic.


#3

yeah there’s no need to run your AI so long into PCT. Some people like to use very low dose aromasin during PCT but I’m not convinced it’s necessary.

An 8 week PCT is overkill


#4

If you’re only going to run 4 weeks of var at 100 mg, I’d be more inclined to stick it in closer to the end, when your test running at full speed. Or drop the dose to 50mg and run 8 weeks of it.


#5

I suggest start hcg at the beginning of week 3 until cycle end.Front loading 1g test is enough to kick start. 30mg anavar each day in 12 weeks is more suitable for strength recovery.


#6

[quote]nooberific wrote:
I believe the reason not running AI during PCT is that because the test should be cleared from your system so there will be nothing aromatizing. AI would run your e2 levels into ground which isn’t good either.

Running AI in between last injection and PCT is important though because there is still test in your system…

If i’m wrong please correct me, but that’s what I have understood from my research on the topic.[/quote]

This is also correct by my understanding, but I guess what I’m getting at is that it may not be at all necessary to run an AI during PCT, but it can only help, assuming you don’t kill your E (I think? Totally open to all opinions here). Similar logic for running Nolva so long. Sure, it may not be necessary, but why not do everything in your power to try and fully recover? I will go back and edit the first post to clarify, but the PCT I laid out is intentionally overkill. You can’t recover too much, can you? haha


#7

[quote]Victor9 wrote:
I suggest start hcg at the beginning of week 3 until cycle end.Front loading 1g test is enough to kick start. 30mg anavar each day in 12 weeks is more suitable for strength recovery. [/quote]

Thanks for the advice, will definitely take into consideration. I am considering changing the dosing protocol of my anavar based on your comment and the one above. Will I notice anything from the 30mg a day for 12 weeks? I’ve generally seen people recommend taking at least 100mg anavar a day.

Thanks


#8

[quote]Paulaner6947 wrote:

[quote]nooberific wrote:
I believe the reason not running AI during PCT is that because the test should be cleared from your system so there will be nothing aromatizing. AI would run your e2 levels into ground which isn’t good either.

Running AI in between last injection and PCT is important though because there is still test in your system…

If i’m wrong please correct me, but that’s what I have understood from my research on the topic.[/quote]

This is also correct by my understanding, but here is the potential problem I am seeing. Assuming you start PCT around the time test levels in system are around baseline, how quickly does your body stop aromitizing Test? I don’t know, so I figure running a low dose AI (being careful not to kill E), at least for a week or two into PCT, would give some insurance.

I guess what I’m getting at is that it may not be at all necessary to run an AI during PCT, but it can only help, assuming you don’t kill your E (I think? Totally open to all opinions here). Similar logic for running Nolva so long. Sure, it may not be necessary, but why not do everything in your power to try and fully recover? I will go back and edit the first post to clarify, but the PCT I laid out is intentionally overkill. You can’t recover too much, can you? haha
[/quote]

I understand now. I misread or misinterpreted. Thought you would run AI throughout whole PCT. I’ve read a lot of people running AI into PCT then tapering off it. Just see how you feel… If you have low E you will know pretty quick.


#9

[quote]Paulaner6947 wrote:

[quote]Victor9 wrote:
I suggest start hcg at the beginning of week 3 until cycle end.Front loading 1g test is enough to kick start. 30mg anavar each day in 12 weeks is more suitable for strength recovery. [/quote]

Thanks for the advice, will definitely take into consideration. I am considering changing the dosing protocol of my anavar based on your comment and the one above. Will I notice anything from the 30mg a day for 12 weeks? I’ve generally seen people recommend taking at least 100mg anavar a day.

Thanks[/quote]

That 30mg a day of anavar seems like john doe’s scheme of low dosage. From what people have recommended around here 75-100mg would be best.

Not sure I’d be thrilled on the idea of running an oral for 12 weeks even if it is low dose var which is the least toxic.

If strength is your goal why not dbol or tbol?


#10

[quote]nooberific wrote:

That 30mg a day of anavar seems like john doe’s scheme of low dosage. From what people have recommended around here 75-100mg would be best.

Not sure I’d be thrilled on the idea of running an oral for 12 weeks even if it is low dose var which is the least toxic.

If strength is your goal why not dbol or tbol?
[/quote]

I’m not really looking to add much mass so I figured var would be the better choice


#11

[quote]Paulaner6947 wrote:

[quote]nooberific wrote:
I believe the reason not running AI during PCT is that because the test should be cleared from your system so there will be nothing aromatizing. AI would run your e2 levels into ground which isn’t good either.

Running AI in between last injection and PCT is important though because there is still test in your system…

If i’m wrong please correct me, but that’s what I have understood from my research on the topic.[/quote]

This is also correct by my understanding, but I guess what I’m getting at is that it may not be at all necessary to run an AI during PCT, but it can only help, assuming you don’t kill your E (I think? Totally open to all opinions here). Similar logic for running Nolva so long. Sure, it may not be necessary, but why not do everything in your power to try and fully recover? I will go back and edit the first post to clarify, but the PCT I laid out is intentionally overkill. You can’t recover too much, can you? haha
[/quote]

my thoughts with running the AI in PCT, are these:

  1. estrogen is 200-400 fold more suppressive to the HPTA than testosterone. take that a minute to sink it…

  2. the AI should be used to keep estrogen under control, but not nuke it down to zero.

^with that being said, most AI’s will not drop estrogen down to zero in men (they do, however, in women).

http://www.eje.org/content/160/3/397.full

  1. most guys gun a SERM for 4 weeks and assume that it will be sufficient to allow their HPTA to recover. however, what proof do they have that this works? my suggestions with a longer PCT are based around the hope that one gets their natural testosterone production as close to normal after the cycle…

since there is no personal accountability on an internet forum, i always err with caution here. if you take Toremifien for 8 weeks instead of 4 weeks, what’s the worst that can happen, from a risk/benefit ratio? i know that after 12 weeks, Tore prolly won’t do much, but that doesn’t mean i need to short-change the results by running it for a less than optimal duration…

just my .02


#12

[quote]Paulaner6947 wrote:

[quote]Victor9 wrote:
I suggest start hcg at the beginning of week 3 until cycle end.Front loading 1g test is enough to kick start. 30mg anavar each day in 12 weeks is more suitable for strength recovery. [/quote]

Thanks for the advice, will definitely take into consideration. I am considering changing the dosing protocol of my anavar based on your comment and the one above. Will I notice anything from the 30mg a day for 12 weeks? I’ve generally seen people recommend taking at least 100mg anavar a day.

Thanks[/quote]
For anavar, 30mg is good for strength. I know 100mg anavar is much better, but there is a lot of fake anavar on the market


#13

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Paulaner6947 wrote:

[quote]nooberific wrote:
I believe the reason not running AI during PCT is that because the test should be cleared from your system so there will be nothing aromatizing. AI would run your e2 levels into ground which isn’t good either.

Running AI in between last injection and PCT is important though because there is still test in your system…

If i’m wrong please correct me, but that’s what I have understood from my research on the topic.[/quote]

This is also correct by my understanding, but I guess what I’m getting at is that it may not be at all necessary to run an AI during PCT, but it can only help, assuming you don’t kill your E (I think? Totally open to all opinions here). Similar logic for running Nolva so long. Sure, it may not be necessary, but why not do everything in your power to try and fully recover? I will go back and edit the first post to clarify, but the PCT I laid out is intentionally overkill. You can’t recover too much, can you? haha
[/quote]

my thoughts with running the AI in PCT, are these:

  1. estrogen is 200-400 fold more suppressive to the HPTA than testosterone. take that a minute to sink it…

  2. the AI should be used to keep estrogen under control, but not nuke it down to zero.

^with that being said, most AI’s will not drop estrogen down to zero in men (they do, however, in women).

http://www.eje.org/content/160/3/397.full

  1. most guys gun a SERM for 4 weeks and assume that it will be sufficient to allow their HPTA to recover. however, what proof do they have that this works? my suggestions with a longer PCT are based around the hope that one gets their natural testosterone production as close to normal after the cycle…

since there is no personal accountability on an internet forum, i always err with caution here. if you take Toremifien for 8 weeks instead of 4 weeks, what’s the worst that can happen, from a risk/benefit ratio? i know that after 12 weeks, Tore prolly won’t do much, but that doesn’t mean i need to short-change the results by running it for a less than optimal duration…

just my .02
[/quote]
Preach. Don’t listen to Bro-science or anyone claiming to be a “doctor” on the internet. You’ve done your research. Listen to your gut.


#14

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Paulaner6947 wrote:

[quote]nooberific wrote:
I believe the reason not running AI during PCT is that because the test should be cleared from your system so there will be nothing aromatizing. AI would run your e2 levels into ground which isn’t good either.

Running AI in between last injection and PCT is important though because there is still test in your system…

If i’m wrong please correct me, but that’s what I have understood from my research on the topic.[/quote]

This is also correct by my understanding, but I guess what I’m getting at is that it may not be at all necessary to run an AI during PCT, but it can only help, assuming you don’t kill your E (I think? Totally open to all opinions here). Similar logic for running Nolva so long. Sure, it may not be necessary, but why not do everything in your power to try and fully recover? I will go back and edit the first post to clarify, but the PCT I laid out is intentionally overkill. You can’t recover too much, can you? haha
[/quote]

my thoughts with running the AI in PCT, are these:

  1. estrogen is 200-400 fold more suppressive to the HPTA than testosterone. take that a minute to sink it…

  2. the AI should be used to keep estrogen under control, but not nuke it down to zero.

^with that being said, most AI’s will not drop estrogen down to zero in men (they do, however, in women).

http://www.eje.org/content/160/3/397.full

  1. most guys gun a SERM for 4 weeks and assume that it will be sufficient to allow their HPTA to recover. however, what proof do they have that this works? my suggestions with a longer PCT are based around the hope that one gets their natural testosterone production as close to normal after the cycle…

since there is no personal accountability on an internet forum, i always err with caution here. if you take Toremifien for 8 weeks instead of 4 weeks, what’s the worst that can happen, from a risk/benefit ratio? i know that after 12 weeks, Tore prolly won’t do much, but that doesn’t mean i need to short-change the results by running it for a less than optimal duration…

just my .02
[/quote]

I agree with you completely, which makes sense given your thread got me started down the path of drawing these conclusions. Will update this thread with bloods. I will be getting additional bloods 6 weeks into cycle, and 6 weeks after I finish PCT. First pin will be in a week or two

Thanks


#15

Got pre cycle bloods back today:

Testosterone, Serum: 396 348-1197 ng/dL
LH: 4.6 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL
FSH: 7.0 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL
Estradiol: 26.4 7.6-42.6 pg/mL

Test is pretty fucking low for a 25 year old. Took the test after work yesterday (5:30pm). Slept decent the night before, probably 5-7 hours, wasn’t tired during the day or anything. Should I get another test at a different time of the day? Used privatemdlabs female hormone panel


#16

Also as a side note: Glucose, Serum 104 HIGH 65-99 mg/dL

I’ve been taking MK-677 for a little over two weeks at 35mg/day. I remember reading studies saying it could decrease insulin sensitivity, which seems to be the case.