T Nation

Cycle for Stamina, Speed & Lean Gains


#1

Hi guys,
Following my sucessful first cycle a few months ago i'm getting ready to order my second cycle. But i'm having difficulty selecting it.

Here's the background. Currently 205lbs, 182cm, 12%BF, 23yo..
I'm planning a summer cycle for a bit of a cut but most importantly i want to improve my sporting performance. I play Gaelic football here in Ireland, its pretty competitive but mainly its played for fun.

I want to put on a bit of lean muscle and get cardiovascular fitter and faster.

I was planning on Test E and winny but BBB advised my that winny could destroy my joints.

A big drinking culture surrounds Gaelic football, i dont plan on getting sloshed every week but i would enjoy a couple of well earned beers after a hard match! And that kind of rules out orals.

Would Test E 250mg E3D
and Masteron 150mg EOD
be good for lean muscle and cardiovascular fitness?

Have any of you other guys anabolics for sports?


#2

Joe,
If you have access to Equipoise, that would be a good for your stamina and will help build lean mass.


#3

I’ve run 600mg/w test E with 250mg/w Mast E and was very happy with the results for cardio. If you can get your hands on masteron Enanthate get that and you can pin them both at the same time E3D…I would drop your dose of masteron though. I find that anything over 300mg/w mast is too much for me…others can tolerate up to 600mg but I find even at 300mg/w I cramp up very easy so I like to dose it at 250mg/w.

Tren was great for leaning out but I would only use it offseason because it really does fuck up your cardio fitness. Great to drop fat in the offseason though so that you are in better shape to run when the season starts.

I am on Test and Deca right now and I HATE it. I’m bloated, sluggish, gyno is flaring up so I have to run super high adex, and my recovery is actually really bad which is shocking given that I am on 1.5g/w of androgens…I dropped the deca last week (5 weeks into the cycle) and am adding in masteron instead to try to salvage this cycle. My strength is good but that is really the only good thing I can say about Test and Deca. I really wouldn’t recommend it for athletes who require endurance.


#4

I’ve found a local source and he tells me ha can get anything!

I’ll read up on EQ, thanks for the input.


#5

[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
I’ve run 600mg/w test E with 250mg/w Mast E and was very happy with the results for cardio. If you can get your hands on masteron Enanthate get that and you can pin them both at the same time E3D…I would drop your dose of masteron though. I find that anything over 300mg/w mast is too much for me…others can tolerate up to 600mg but I find even at 300mg/w I cramp up very easy so I like to dose it at 250mg/w.

Tren was great for leaning out but I would only use it offseason because it really does fuck up your cardio fitness. Great to drop fat in the offseason though so that you are in better shape to run when the season starts.

I am on Test and Deca right now and I HATE it. I’m bloated, sluggish, gyno is flaring up so I have to run super high adex, and my recovery is actually really bad which is shocking given that I am on 1.5g/w of androgens…I dropped the deca last week (5 weeks into the cycle) and am adding in masteron instead to try to salvage this cycle. My strength is good but that is really the only good thing I can say about Test and Deca. I really wouldn’t recommend it for athletes who require endurance.[/quote]

Thanks for the input FG.
Yeah its hard to find info on anabolics for endurance and speed.
A lot of the cutting drugs may not help!

Would you recommend running test/mast and eq? or is that too much?


#6

Ok here’s where i’ve gotten so far.
I’m only planning on an 8 week cycle so i’ve learned that that rules out Equipoise.

So i rang my guy and asked about the masteron, he thinks that it is no good for cardio fitness and speed and thinks i should go for winstrol and use glucosamine to protect my joints. He says that he only sells masteron to guys who are about to go on stage.

So what do you think of these options:

W1-8 Test E 250mg/E3D
W1-8 Masteron 350mg/week (not sure which ester i can get)

0r

W1-8 Test E 250mg/E3D
W1-10 Winstrol 50mg/ED

Standard Nolva Pct
.25mg Adex EOD

Also can anyone comment on masteron for cardiovascular fitness?


#7

I know Iron Joe said that it (masteron) helped a lot when he added it to his Tren cycle.


#8

Yes i read that too, cheers DH.
My guy is giving me a good price on 2g of Masteron so i think i’ll use that with the Test E which i already have. He said he’ll throw in a bag of winny tabs 100 x 10mg, i think i’ll keep them on hand and maybe throw them in at a later stage.

2grams of masteron will work out at 250mg/week for 8 weeks

so as it stands cycle is:

W 1-8 Test E 250mg E3D
W 1-8 Masteron 250mg/week

unless someone advises me better!


#9

i would go with the masteron and run it exactly as you have laid out except that the mast shots need to be split into E3D shots same as the test

W 1-8 Test E 250mg E3D
W 1-8 Mast E 100mg E3D


#10

[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
i would go with the masteron and run it exactly as you have laid out except that the mast shots need to be split into E3D shots same as the test

W 1-8 Test E 250mg E3D
W 1-8 Mast E 100mg E3D[/quote]

This is an extrenely low Masteron dose (233mg/wk) - far too low IME.


#11

You asked me to look at your post GI - however honestly i dont have much to add - i dont personally train for Endurance or Aerobically very often, and while i do train others for these reasons - my view on AAS for those goals are probably draconian.

The main points i would use to design a cycle around your goals are:

  • Low dose Test for performance enhancement AND connective tissue repair. So, this is 200mg/wk (still at least double the best level most men ever have naturally).
  • No Winstrol, as this is such a common Steroid to lead to injuries… and anaerobic endurance training will often be one of the worst types of training for this AAS (it DOES strengthen connective tissues, but makes them brittle in the process).
  • I personally do not like Equipoise usually - as in doses for BB purposes it causes anxiety in myself, and little gains that cant be attained or surpassed with other AAS - and i rarely advise its use for these reasons. However at 300mg/wk it will have positive connective tissue benefits and some anabolism, whilst increasing RBC production due to an increased total AAS level - without increasing the Test dose higher than 200mg/wk and ruining its benefits in connective tissue repair and integrity…
  • I would be tempted to add Deca, is is a great anabolic, and at 200mg/wk it’s libido sides are minimal in my experience (and 0.5mg caber per week or 2.5mg bromo per day never hurt IMO!) - plus it too has good connective tissue benefits.
  • There is also Masteron - which is great for strength, no estrogen, has binding affinity to SHBG and Aromatase, and it seems to be friendly to those who are actually into fitness performance - not just lifting heavy weights for 5-10 reps…!
  • Oxandrolone will help to increase strength, is in and out fast, and is a low androgen and low anabolic - but will improve performance noticeably.

With those points in consideration, cycles that could be considered may include:

Test E 200mg/wk
Deca 200mg/wk
Mast E 400mg/wk

Test E 200mg/wk
Equipoise 300mg/wk
Anavar 420mg/wk

Mast E 400mg/wk
Deca 200mg/wk
Anavar 420mg/wk

Test E 200mg/wk
Mast E 400mg/wk

Test E 200mg/wk
Equipoise 400mg/wk

Test 200mg/wk
(Proviron 175mg/wk)
Deca 200mg/wk

But generally… if you avoid the drugs that will pile on water weight - and Trenbolone, then low/moderate dosages of most any AAS will provide good performance enhancement in muscular endurance activity - cardio endurance improvements are more to do with how you train when your muscles are less likely to hold your body back.

Bodybuilders are very much of the “more is better” mentality, and here it becomes apparent - as the dosages for performance enhancement needn’t be quite what we use looking for the most size we can build.
Nutrition is a good example, bodybuilders will eat a surplus of EVERYTHING the majority of the year, as more is better (generally) when trying to build, however nutrition for optimum sports performance is often wholly different (unless you find a bodybuilder that is educated in sports nutrition and uses it to maximise his size and training… ;p).

Hope this helps some :wink:

Brook


#12

Must be a typo. FG probably meant 250mg E3D.


#13

no I meant 100mg E3D…you could bump that to 125mg E3D if you wanted to…I found that was plenty for me to see an effect and not so much that I got cramping…cramping isn’t such an issue with BodyBuilding but it is a real problem with endurance sports…I play rugby and at anything 300mg/w and up I got so tight on masteron that I cramped up easily. Your muscles look really cool cause they are so tight they look like they are going to pop but not so cool if you have to pull yourself from a game because you are cramped up and can’t run.

That isn’t to say that this will be everyone’s experience, I have heard some users say they can run up to 600mg/w…everyone is different that’s why there is always a range… but then again some people may be taking underdosed masteron and thinking they are getting 600mg/w when they are really only getting 300mg/w.

I found 250mg/w to be my sweet spot with mast - I get a good strength increase, no added bloating from estrogen, some fatloss, but most importantly no cramping.

If running Deca or EQ I would do so only at very low doses (200mg/w deca or 300mg/w EQ) because higher doses will bloat you up and be counter productive. Personally I don’t like EQ for cutting but again we are all different. I really didn’t find the EPO side to be that great in terms of running but it did help me stay in the gym longer because my recovery was very good.

I have run the exact doses that I advised, played rubgy on those doses, and loved it…add in some primo (400-800mg/w) and I think you’ve got an ideal sports cycle…primo is expensive and doesn’t add a huge benifit over what you’ve already got with the test and mast so the cost isn’t really worth it unless you are a pro athlete or you are brewing yuor own cheap…you could maybe reduce your test a bit if you added primo so that the cycle would look like this:

W 1-8 Test 400mg/w
W 1-8 Mast 250mg/w
W 1-8 Primo 600mg/w

  • all enth esters split into E3D shots

Again this is a cycle I have ACTUALLY done while playing rugby and it was very good for me personally…will it be great for everyone…I don’t know?

Just my 2cents.

FG


#14

The only oral I have managed to tolerate was proviron…everything else gives me terrible back pumps when jogging around during practice/games so I don’t use them anymore. If you were adding proviron I would recommend 50mg/d for the second half of your cycle to counter the buildup of binding proteins.


#15

[quote] Brook wrote:
You asked me to look at your post GI - however honestly i dont have much to add - i dont personally train for Endurance or Aerobically very often, and while i do train others for these reasons - my view on AAS for those goals are probably draconian.

The main points i would use to design a cycle around your goals are:

  • Low dose Test for performance enhancement AND connective tissue repair. So, this is 200mg/wk (still at least double the best level most men ever have naturally).
  • No Winstrol, as this is such a common Steroid to lead to injuries… and anaerobic endurance training will often be one of the worst types of training for this AAS (it DOES strengthen connective tissues, but makes them brittle in the process).
  • I personally do not like Equipoise usually - as in doses for BB purposes it causes anxiety in myself, and little gains that cant be attained or surpassed with other AAS - and i rarely advise its use for these reasons. However at 300mg/wk it will have positive connective tissue benefits and some anabolism, whilst increasing RBC production due to an increased total AAS level - without increasing the Test dose higher than 200mg/wk and ruining its benefits in connective tissue repair and integrity…
  • I would be tempted to add Deca, is is a great anabolic, and at 200mg/wk it’s libido sides are minimal in my experience (and 0.5mg caber per week or 2.5mg bromo per day never hurt IMO!) - plus it too has good connective tissue benefits.
  • There is also Masteron - which is great for strength, no estrogen, has binding affinity to SHBG and Aromatase, and it seems to be friendly to those who are actually into fitness performance - not just lifting heavy weights for 5-10 reps…!
  • Oxandrolone will help to increase strength, is in and out fast, and is a low androgen and low anabolic - but will improve performance noticeably.

With those points in consideration, cycles that could be considered may include:

Test E 200mg/wk
Deca 200mg/wk
Mast E 400mg/wk

Test E 200mg/wk
Equipoise 300mg/wk
Anavar 420mg/wk

Mast E 400mg/wk
Deca 200mg/wk
Anavar 420mg/wk

Test E 200mg/wk
Mast E 400mg/wk

Test E 200mg/wk
Equipoise 400mg/wk

Test 200mg/wk
(Proviron 175mg/wk)
Deca 200mg/wk

But generally… if you avoid the drugs that will pile on water weight - and Trenbolone, then low/moderate dosages of most any AAS will provide good performance enhancement in muscular endurance activity - cardio endurance improvements are more to do with how you train when your muscles are less likely to hold your body back.

Bodybuilders are very much of the “more is better” mentality, and here it becomes apparent - as the dosages for performance enhancement needn’t be quite what we use looking for the most size we can build.
Nutrition is a good example, bodybuilders will eat a surplus of EVERYTHING the majority of the year, as more is better (generally) when trying to build, however nutrition for optimum sports performance is often wholly different (unless you find a bodybuilder that is educated in sports nutrition and uses it to maximise his size and training… ;p).

Hope this helps some :wink:

Brook[/quote]

Thanks for the great reply brook, i never even considered deca…
And you would say 400mg/w is a minimum for masteron? i’m sure i could get my hand on a third bottle!

I will be weight lifting 3 days a week and cardio 3 days a week, thats why i choose 500mg of test E, i was hoping to be able to continue making gains while getting fitter and faster at the same time. Am i hoping for too much?

your first option:
Test E 200mg/wk
Deca 200mg/wk
Mast E 400mg/wk

could i run it with 500mg test E?
Would the deca cause bloat?


#16

[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
no I meant 100mg E3D…you could bump that to 125mg E3D if you wanted to…I found that was plenty for me to see an effect and not so much that I got cramping…cramping isn’t such an issue with BodyBuilding but it is a real problem with endurance sports…I play rugby and at anything 300mg/w and up I got so tight on masteron that I cramped up easily. Your muscles look really cool cause they are so tight they look like they are going to pop but not so cool if you have to pull yourself from a game because you are cramped up and can’t run.

That isn’t to say that this will be everyone’s experience, I have heard some users say they can run up to 600mg/w…everyone is different that’s why there is always a range… but then again some people may be taking underdosed masteron and thinking they are getting 600mg/w when they are really only getting 300mg/w.

I found 250mg/w to be my sweet spot with mast - I get a good strength increase, no added bloating from estrogen, some fatloss, but most importantly no cramping.

If running Deca or EQ I would do so only at very low doses (200mg/w deca or 300mg/w EQ) because higher doses will bloat you up and be counter productive. Personally I don’t like EQ for cutting but again we are all different. I really didn’t find the EPO side to be that great in terms of running but it did help me stay in the gym longer because my recovery was very good.

I have run the exact doses that I advised, played rubgy on those doses, and loved it…add in some primo (400-800mg/w) and I think you’ve got an ideal sports cycle…primo is expensive and doesn’t add a huge benifit over what you’ve already got with the test and mast so the cost isn’t really worth it unless you are a pro athlete or you are brewing yuor own cheap…you could maybe reduce your test a bit if you added primo so that the cycle would look like this:

W 1-8 Test 400mg/w
W 1-8 Mast 250mg/w
W 1-8 Primo 600mg/w

  • all enth esters split into E3D shots

Again this is a cycle I have ACTUALLY done while playing rugby and it was very good for me personally…will it be great for everyone…I don’t know?

Just my 2cents.

FG[/quote]

Cheers FG, thats what i like to hear, first hand experience, my sport is a bit similar to yours. I would probably be better off starting at a low dose of mast and maybe upping it every 2 weeks and stopping if i start to cramp a lot.

Thats some great advise guys, thanks very much!


#17

[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
no I meant 100mg E3D…you could bump that to 125mg E3D if you wanted to…I found that was plenty for me to see an effect and not so much that I got cramping…cramping isn’t such an issue with BodyBuilding but it is a real problem with endurance sports…I play rugby and at anything 300mg/w and up I got so tight on masteron that I cramped up easily. Your muscles look really cool cause they are so tight they look like they are going to pop but not so cool if you have to pull yourself from a game because you are cramped up and can’t run.

That isn’t to say that this will be everyone’s experience, I have heard some users say they can run up to 600mg/w…everyone is different that’s why there is always a range… but then again some people may be taking underdosed masteron and thinking they are getting 600mg/w when they are really only getting 300mg/w.

I found 250mg/w to be my sweet spot with mast - I get a good strength increase, no added bloating from estrogen, some fatloss, but most importantly no cramping.

If running Deca or EQ I would do so only at very low doses (200mg/w deca or 300mg/w EQ) because higher doses will bloat you up and be counter productive. Personally I don’t like EQ for cutting but again we are all different. I really didn’t find the EPO side to be that great in terms of running but it did help me stay in the gym longer because my recovery was very good.

I have run the exact doses that I advised, played rubgy on those doses, and loved it…add in some primo (400-800mg/w) and I think you’ve got an ideal sports cycle…primo is expensive and doesn’t add a huge benifit over what you’ve already got with the test and mast so the cost isn’t really worth it unless you are a pro athlete or you are brewing yuor own cheap…you could maybe reduce your test a bit if you added primo so that the cycle would look like this:

W 1-8 Test 400mg/w
W 1-8 Mast 250mg/w
W 1-8 Primo 600mg/w

  • all enth esters split into E3D shots

Again this is a cycle I have ACTUALLY done while playing rugby and it was very good for me personally…will it be great for everyone…I don’t know?

Just my 2cents.

FG[/quote]

Your experience with Mast is fair enough FG, but there were a couple of things that stood out - firstly, no matter the dose of Masteron, one will get no estrogenic bloating - DHT has zero affinity for aromatase and as such will not convert to estrogen.

Secondly you mentioned that doses above 300mg of Eq will bloat one up… this also isnt quite correct IMO, in that while Eq technically does aromatise (apparently 50% at the rate of Testosterone) - it doesnt to any degree that causes bloating of any kind, not in even higher doses. At least that is the personal experience of myself and those i have spoken to.

Test increases bloating and fat gain way over Deca, and it is my opinion that Deca is a very good anabolic for ‘quality’ gains… it gives relatively large increases in muscle (compared to Mast, Primo, Eq) but with less of the water and fat attributed to Test.
Performance wise, a 50-50 split of Test-Deca would be much better than a 100% dose of Test… the gains will match the Test only cycle, but there will be less fat and water - making the gains ‘leaner’ if you like.
Deca is very misunderstood in this regard, and i think it is due to low-dose Test fakes out there.

However i like the cycle you suggested FG (400TE, 250ME, 600PE) - although i do think that better/equal results can be achieved with a less costly cycle - prolly due to the Primobolan really.

(I personally think that ‘speed’ and ‘stamina’ are non-issues with regards to AAS use… any AAS can be used to help increase these factors of fitness, training dependant. As i mentioned in my post, the usually higher than needed doses bodybuilders use are higher in sides and will not be useful for peak performance - but when low/moderate dosages are applied, almost every drug we use regularly here will be productive in increasing performance in training and thus lead eventually to increased speed or muscular endurance - JMO.)

Brook


#18

I’m just stating my experiences with these drugs…I have tried a lot of different combos (Primo and OT, Test/Mast/Primo/Dbol, Test/mast, Test/EQ/Mast/OT, Test/EQ/Mast, TestP/TrenA/MastP/Primo, TestP/TrenA/MastP/Primo/winny, TestP/MastP/Primo, anavar only, Test/Deca/anastrol, test/deca)…on each of these combos I have played with the doses with the expressed wish to find an ideal for sports because that is really my focus (bodybuilding is a side project for me) and I felt the best in terms of cardio on just test E and mast E at the doses listed before (600/250mg/w).

it will be different for different people…as I said, I am not the norm when it comes to steroids…I literally can’t use a single oral other than proviron because of crippling back pumps (to my knowledge I am the only one with this issue). I can get away with 10mg/d OT as well with only minor issues and I was ok with up to 40mg/d anavar but that’s it…I bloat up so easily that pretty much any orals give me problems.

I got bloated on EQ big time…the higher my dose the higher the bloat and blood pressure for me…I felt sluggish and slow so the increased RBC count did nothing for me in terms of cardio because I was too sluggish. I was a machine in the gym on it but slow on the field.

I was fast as fuck off the starting block on Test/tren/mast/primo cycle but I would get winded really bad…granted it would usually be because I broke a few tackles and ran for 40+ yards for a try so getting winded was expected but it would take me 10+ mins to recover which was too long to be a non-factor in a game. On 1.5g total androgens of these compounds my physique changed pretty much daily to leaner and more muscular but the issue with getting winded and growth of glands behind my nipples caused me to drop the tren.

As for the current cycle maybe my deca is not good deca (it is some BD stuff I got cheap so perhaps it’s low dosed test as you say or some other shit entirely) but I am getting the same gland growth I got from tren (totally diff than any gyno issues I’ve had on test where my chest gets itchy and puffy all over…this is just growth of the glands behind the nips with pain and no itch which even high dose AI’s do nothing for)…overall I think the problem may also be that I don’t do well with high doses of aromatizing androgens so maybe my problem is not the deca but the dose…I was at 1g test and 500mg deca which was a terrible experience for me (lethargic, slow, bloated, poor recovery)…now that the levels are tapering off a bit I feel a lot better. I had my first good workout today since I dropped the deca 2 weeks ago and started to reduce the test dose…I am probably at about 750-800mg of test right now which feels a lot better.

For body building you can be a little sluggish and it doesn’t really matter all that much…for rugby it might mean the diffence between breaking a run for a try or getting caught by the tackle. It could mean catching a guy trying to get away from you or missing him and he scores the try. Being in the right place or the wrong place is a big deal in such a fast paced game.

Again my experiences should by no means tell anyone what will work for them. I am just relaying my experiences as they relate to my sport. I am certainly not saying you are wrong…just that these compounds were wrong for me personally.

FG


#19

So i’m collecting my gear today,

This is the proposed cycle

W 1-8 Test E 250mg E3D (frontloaded 750mg - i’m using amps)
W 1-8 Masteron Prop 70mg EOD

PCT standard nolva 40/40/20/20

One question would adex .25mg EOD be sufficent?


#20

Hey G.I.

Looks good. You can base adex dose on your prior cycle(s). Adjust dose up or down if estrogen issues arise.

When will you be starting??