T Nation

Cycle Critique

Pharma
#1

This is the final product of my first cylce. Give me your critique or input on the cycle. How does the HCG use look? I started it at day 21 when suppression begins and ended treatment when PCT starts. PCT starts 4 weeks after the last injection of EQ(Week 10).

Week 1-3
Equipoise 800mg/week
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 4-6
Equipoise 600mg/week
Winstrol Tabs 50mg/day
HCG 100 iu’s every 3rd day
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 7-8
Winstrol Tabs 50 mg/day
HCG 100 iu’s every 3rd day
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 9
HCG 100 iu’s every 3rd day
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 10-11
Nolvadex 40mg/day

Week 11-12
Nolvadex 20mg/day

#2

Two questions:

  1. Where’s the test?

  2. Why no frontload on EQ?

STU

#3

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#4

  1. Even though this is my first cycle and everyone always reccomends Test, I choose not to use Test for several reason. Mainly due to some its negative side effects in particular its very strong adrogenic affect (high aromitzation), strong water retention, much harder to retain the same amt of size, and higher chance of complications such as hbp, acne, gyno (as mentioned), and hair loss. The EQ and Winstol put on more “quality muscle” with different side effects I am more willing to chance on.

  2. Also there is a frontload on the EQ. It is not in the traditional form of doubling the dose on the first injection. However, 800mg of EQ are administered weeks 1-3 and then it is cut to 600mg weeks 4-6. This will accomplish the same goal as the frontload.

#5

Wouldn’t the equipoise keep the water retention from test to a minimum - if you were to stack them?

Just asking.

#6

Way too short given EQ’s long half life. You’re only gonna start feeling and seeing it around weeks 3-4, mabye even later given the really skimpy “frontload”.

#7

I guess in theory it would minimize the water retention from the test but not eliminate it. However, why is it neccesary to include test in this cycle? I figure the EQ and Winstrol can put on about 10-15lbs of quality muscle with proper diet and training. Considering I am trying to avoid test and will be using HCG to treat testicular atrophy what am i missing? Last time i checked not EVERY cycle had or needed test depending on desired results.

#8

In response to ZELL: With any juice that has as long of a half life as EQ one must wait to see gains. This is not like a test cycle where gains will be rapid and massive off the gun. This will be a more gradual gain in mass. I dont know what you mean by too short. The EQ will be out of my system 4 weeks after i take the last injection and that is when PCT begins. 3 weeks of EQ at 800mg (untraditional frontload), then followed by 600mg of EQ doesnt seem skimpy to me? does anyone else agree with ZELL that this is skimpy, or “way too short”? If so please explain a little better.

#9

Zell bro…800mg for 3 weeks is not a skimpy front load at all for a first timer seeing how many I know have gained tons on less then 400mg ew of EQ.
He might not be using test to jump up the size but, the winny will keep the test slammed into his receptors through out the cycle.
Good luck, get BIG and tell us how it goes.
DA

#10

I have to agree with DA. This cycle has the making to be very effective provided diet,training,rest are in order.
The only thing that stands out to me is the minute amount of hcg being employed. I personally don’t see why you’re shooting it e3d given hcg’s half-life is ~5hours. If I were in your shoes, I’d opt for the sat,sun protocol of hcg w/ 500iu both days…I just have my doubts on how effective 100iu will be in combatting testicular atrophy. Keep us posted on the cycle.

MK

#11

Fair enough, DA and MikeKatz know far more than I do, so I guess it’s an appropriate front load. I just didn’t realize only a 33% increase in dose would help get blood levels up that much faster. Plus I’ve heard a lot of people dismiss short cycles with longer acting esters. Good luck with your cycle bro.

#12

Does this HCG protocol look better then the previous 100 IU’s every 3 days? Is this too much or too long in regards to the risk of permanently desensitizing the LH?

Week 1-3
Equipoise 800mg/week
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 4-6
Equipoise 600mg/week
Winstrol Tabs 50mg/day
HCG 500 IU’S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 7-8
Winstrol Tabs 50 mg/day
HCG 500 IU’S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 9
HCG 500 IU’S SAT/SUN
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 10-11
Nolvadex 40mg/day

Week 11-12
Nolvadex 20mg/day

#13

[quote]shwagna816 wrote:
Does this HCG protocol look better then the previous 100 IU’s every 3 days? Is this too much or too long in regards to the risk of permanently desensitizing the LH?

Week 1-3
Equipoise 800mg/week
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 4-6
Equipoise 600mg/week
Winstrol Tabs 50mg/day
HCG 500 IU’S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 7-8
Winstrol Tabs 50 mg/day
HCG 500 IU’S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 9
HCG 500 IU’S SAT/SUN
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 10-11
Nolvadex 40mg/day

Week 11-12
Nolvadex 20mg/day [/quote]

Bro, have no worries w/ the hcg. It’s the people who shoot 1000iu+ that need to worry about long term desensitization. Another idea is running the winstrol for the 9th week as well since you don’t start pct until week 10.

MK

#14

isn’t he hitting the HCG a bit early? ALso, is it really necessary when on only deca and winstrol?

#15

If it was me doing this cycle, I would add 40 Mg of D-bol ED for the first two (maybe three) week. That way you start getting gains more or less from day one. With EQ’s long halftime it takes a bit of time to get the blood-levels up to a “gain giving” level.

But to each his own.

#16

[quote]Mr. Moose wrote:
If it was me doing this cycle, I would add 40 Mg of D-bol ED for the first two (maybe three) week. That way you start getting gains more or less from day one. With EQ’s long halftime it takes a bit of time to get the blood-levels up to a “gain giving” level.

But to each his own.

[/quote]

I don’t think he was wanting to run an oral throughout the entire cycle.
As for eq, yea it will probably take ~2 weeks to get blood levels up to a respectable level, but he will still have an effective period for gains from ~week3 to week9…42 days is plenty of time to accomplish his goals.

MK

#17

[quote]mikekatz wrote:
Mr. Moose wrote:
If it was me doing this cycle, I would add 40 Mg of D-bol ED for the first two (maybe three) week. That way you start getting gains more or less from day one. With EQ’s long halftime it takes a bit of time to get the blood-levels up to a “gain giving” level.

But to each his own.

I don’t think he was wanting to run an oral throughout the entire cycle.
As for eq, yea it will probably take ~2 weeks to get blood levels up to a respectable level, but he will still have an effective period for gains from ~week3 to week9…42 days is plenty of time to accomplish his goals.

MK

[/quote]

I think I understand how he thought but wouldn’t it make more sense to do a cycle that gives you gains straight away instead of chosing AAS you have to wait 2-3 weeks before they “kick in”?

Starting with 2 weeks of D-bol wouldn’t put much more strain on the liver and he’s going to use orals for 5 out of the 8 weeks anyway. (Week 3 no orals)

You’re still screwing with your system so why not try to make the most out of it :wink:

#18

True, his liver will probably not have long term damage from using the dbol, but there are more side effects to consider other than hepatoxicity. For this individual he was wanting to stay away from drugs that bloat and cause hair loss, hence he was running eq and winstrol.

I used to be a believer in kickstarting every cycle w/ an oral, but I’ve realized through experience that w/ an adequate frontload you start to feel it in as little as 7-10 days; So I guess if you really wanted to maximize a cycle’s effectiveness you could run an oral for the first 7 days.

MK

#19

If he’s prone to bloating, yes, then I agree but personally I’ve done a few cycles, test, deca and d-bol with hardly and water retention at all. We are all different so to each his own.

I just want to maximize my gains when on AAS so I start with a frontload AND orals, usually D-bol.

Hairloss… not a problem for me, I’m almost bald already ;-( been since my early 20s.

#20

yea MK is right… I wanted to avoid significant water retention and hair loss which is commonly associated with d-bol. I still have a full head of hair and Id like to keep it that way. Im gonna post some before pics soon and then ill post some pics after the cycle. I plan to start in about 2-3 weeks. Thanks for all the input.
-JP