T Nation

Cycle Critique

Stats:
5’11" 200lbs. 16%BF
34yo Training 6-7years
Night shifter but I try to eat clean and as often as I can.

Test Cyp 12 weeks @ 500mg/week
Tren Acetate 8 weeks @ 50mg/EOD
EQ 12 weeks @ 500mg/week
PCT- Test Taper, Proviron 3weeks EOC

This is not my first cycle, however it is my first experience with Tren. Thanks in advance.

You gonna run the tren in the first 8 weeks or the last? And Only 50mgs EOD?

What about SERMS/AIs?

Tell us about the compounds you chose and why you chose them.

Brook

Tren in the first 8 weeks, yes just 50mgs because I’ve read that more experienced Tren users should go higher, like 75mgs but newer users may want to start lower and go higher in the later week of the cycle to assess tolerance. I’ve read alot of varying opinions on what AI’s to use with this type of cycle, what would you recommend?

I’ve choosen these particular compounds because I like the strength/size gains from Cyp, even though I realize alot of the Cyp gains are from water retention. It’s a longer acting ester, as is the EQ, so I wanted to have a shorter quicker acting Class 1 and everything I’ve read points to Tren.

[quote]DoubleR wrote:
Stats:
5’11" 200lbs. 16%BF
34yo Training 6-7years
Night shifter but I try to eat clean and as often as I can.

Test Cyp 12 weeks @ 500mg/week
Tren Acetate 8 weeks @ 50mg/EOD
EQ 12 weeks @ 500mg/week
PCT- Test Taper, Proviron 3weeks EOC

This is not my first cycle, however it is my first experience with Tren. Thanks in advance. [/quote]

Tren Ace should be shot ED as I’ve seen charts that show waaay more stable hormone levels even .vs. EOD.

I’ve read that proviron still causes supression and taking it during pct is a BAD idea, something to look into. I believe Bill Roberts has commented on it recently.

Not much else I can add, I’d probably opt for an AI during the cycle, but it seems that topic is of personal preference and being this isn’t your first cycle you should know how you respond to gear.

Cabergoline or Bromocriptine should be on hand IMO just incase prolactin becomes an issue from the tren.

Good luck.

DG

Thanks DG, I’ll look into the things you’ve mentioned b4 getting started. The AI will be on hand and I think I’m going with Clomid instead of the Proviron.

[quote]DoubleR wrote:
Thanks DG, I’ll look into the things you’ve mentioned b4 getting started. The AI will be on hand and I think I’m going with Clomid instead of the Proviron.[/quote]

my suggestion like Gerdy said is get an AI to combat a tren induced gyno just incase. and think about this proviron is actually a steroid, it had some anti estrogen like properities but it is a setroid none the less, for pct you would want either a serm or a taper type pct.
as for the Ais I really see no harm in running them through out the cycle to combat any nastiness before it starts.

read up on pct a little more ok?

Like I mentioned in my original post, I intend on using a taper regardless, I was just curious on the AI’s that may be best for tren. From what I’ve read Clomid is effective as an AI and will also help increase natural test production. If gyno becomes a problem then I’ll go with A’dex throughout the duration of the cycle.

MaddyD I forgot to say thanks for the response, and I will continue to read everything I can get my hands on, as we all should.

[quote]DoubleR wrote:
Like I mentioned in my original post, I intend on using a taper regardless, I was just curious on the AI’s that may be best for tren. From what I’ve read Clomid is effective as an AI and will also help increase natural test production. If gyno becomes a problem then I’ll go with A’dex throughout the duration of the cycle. [/quote]

Clomid isn’t an AI. It is a SERM. Controlling estrogen with an AI does more than just prevent gyno. Clomid can be used to prevent gyno (but usually is not used for that reason) but it will not increase natural test levels while on cycle, I think.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
DoubleR wrote:
Like I mentioned in my original post, I intend on using a taper regardless, I was just curious on the AI’s that may be best for tren. From what I’ve read Clomid is effective as an AI and will also help increase natural test production. If gyno becomes a problem then I’ll go with A’dex throughout the duration of the cycle.

Clomid isn’t an AI. It is a SERM. Controlling estrogen with an AI does more than just prevent gyno. Clomid can be used to prevent gyno (but usually is not used for that reason) but it will not increase natural test levels while on cycle, I think. [/quote]

correct, for a test/tren cycle the AIs of choice are caber and a’dex, nolva on hand and to use for pct or to help in pct.

these are my choices anyways

Excellent, thanks again MaddyD.

[quote]MaddyD wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
DoubleR wrote:
Like I mentioned in my original post, I intend on using a taper regardless, I was just curious on the AI’s that may be best for tren. From what I’ve read Clomid is effective as an AI and will also help increase natural test production. If gyno becomes a problem then I’ll go with A’dex throughout the duration of the cycle.

Clomid isn’t an AI. It is a SERM. Controlling estrogen with an AI does more than just prevent gyno. Clomid can be used to prevent gyno (but usually is not used for that reason) but it will not increase natural test levels while on cycle, I think.

correct, for a test/tren cycle the AIs of choice are caber and a’dex, nolva on hand and to use for pct or to help in pct.

these are my choices anyways[/quote]

Well if I wanna get nit picky the only AI above is adex. Nolva is a SERM and caber is basically an anti-prolactin drug in this case :wink:

I assume you probably know this and just mis typed, but just in case the OP starts searching out AI’s I guess we can distinguish. lol :stuck_out_tongue:

DG

[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
MaddyD wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
DoubleR wrote:
Like I mentioned in my original post, I intend on using a taper regardless, I was just curious on the AI’s that may be best for tren. From what I’ve read Clomid is effective as an AI and will also help increase natural test production. If gyno becomes a problem then I’ll go with A’dex throughout the duration of the cycle.

Clomid isn’t an AI. It is a SERM. Controlling estrogen with an AI does more than just prevent gyno. Clomid can be used to prevent gyno (but usually is not used for that reason) but it will not increase natural test levels while on cycle, I think.

correct, for a test/tren cycle the AIs of choice are caber and a’dex, nolva on hand and to use for pct or to help in pct.

these are my choices anyways

Well if I wanna get nit picky the only AI above is adex. Nolva is a SERM and caber is basically an anti-prolactin drug in this case :wink:

I assume you probably know this and just mis typed, but just in case the OP starts searching out AI’s I guess we can distinguish. lol :stuck_out_tongue:

DG

[/quote]

ya your right, its not a mistype I was just plain wrong, waqsnt paying attention to my own words I meant ancillaries,but I put AIs instead good catch.

[quote]MaddyD wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
MaddyD wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
DoubleR wrote:
Like I mentioned in my original post, I intend on using a taper regardless, I was just curious on the AI’s that may be best for tren. From what I’ve read Clomid is effective as an AI and will also help increase natural test production. If gyno becomes a problem then I’ll go with A’dex throughout the duration of the cycle.

Clomid isn’t an AI. It is a SERM. Controlling estrogen with an AI does more than just prevent gyno. Clomid can be used to prevent gyno (but usually is not used for that reason) but it will not increase natural test levels while on cycle, I think.

correct, for a test/tren cycle the AIs of choice are caber and a’dex, nolva on hand and to use for pct or to help in pct.

these are my choices anyways

Well if I wanna get nit picky the only AI above is adex. Nolva is a SERM and caber is basically an anti-prolactin drug in this case :wink:

I assume you probably know this and just mis typed, but just in case the OP starts searching out AI’s I guess we can distinguish. lol :stuck_out_tongue:

DG

ya your right, its not a mistype I was just plain wrong, waqsnt paying attention to my own words I meant ancillaries,but I put AIs instead good catch.

[/quote]

Give the guy a break DG - he has lest than 50 posts :wink:

On a more serious note: I would like to see the OP get back to looking at his tren protocol. His research is solid on dosages except if he insists on pinning EOD I believe his research will show he should be at 100 and not 50, which is the ED dose.

I also wanted to comment that while running tren ace with the longer esters goes against the advice of most vets, that I found it a compelling argument and hope it goes well.

[quote]Mousse wrote:
MaddyD wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
MaddyD wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
DoubleR wrote:
Like I mentioned in my original post, I intend on using a taper regardless, I was just curious on the AI’s that may be best for tren. From what I’ve read Clomid is effective as an AI and will also help increase natural test production. If gyno becomes a problem then I’ll go with A’dex throughout the duration of the cycle.

Clomid isn’t an AI. It is a SERM. Controlling estrogen with an AI does more than just prevent gyno. Clomid can be used to prevent gyno (but usually is not used for that reason) but it will not increase natural test levels while on cycle, I think.

correct, for a test/tren cycle the AIs of choice are caber and a’dex, nolva on hand and to use for pct or to help in pct.

these are my choices anyways

Well if I wanna get nit picky the only AI above is adex. Nolva is a SERM and caber is basically an anti-prolactin drug in this case :wink:

I assume you probably know this and just mis typed, but just in case the OP starts searching out AI’s I guess we can distinguish. lol :stuck_out_tongue:

DG

ya your right, its not a mistype I was just plain wrong, waqsnt paying attention to my own words I meant ancillaries,but I put AIs instead good catch.

Give the guy a break DG - he has lest than 50 posts :wink:

On a more serious note: I would like to see the OP get back to looking at his tren protocol. His research is solid on dosages except if he insists on pinning EOD I believe his research will show he should be at 100 and not 50, which is the ED dose.

I also wanted to comment that while running tren ace with the longer esters goes against the advice of most vets, that I found it a compelling argument and hope it goes well.[/quote]

Well I’m on Tren so NO BREAKS…for ANYBODY! HAHA! lol jk :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Idk about dosing, I mean 50mg is where I started and where I’m staying, but some have ran it at 35mg and gotten great results. I don’t think there is one ‘recommended’ dose when it comes to steroids in general,I mean some people grow on 350mg a week of Test when most recommend 500mg/week. I do believe in the recommendations of ratios… Test:Tren ration being one of them.

I also look at tren being a fast acting ester that is shot ED, I believe you can take short esters with longer esters if you choose…I think they can almost be treated like an oral being it is administered daily and goes to work fairly quick.

I think 2 MAIN reasons why people suggest running all fast acting or long acting together instead of mix n match are:

1.) If running Test E it may take 4-5 weeks to kick in. If you start Tren Ace in week 1 it will kick in much faster than the test and leave you limp for a few weeks, etc.

2.) If your going to pin ED, you might as well go all fast acting stuff so you don’t have to wait for the rest of the slow esters to kick in.

I’m no vet by any means, not even close…but this is my opinion so take it for what its worth :wink:

I am going to try a slow ester cycle next, but I don’t mind pinning ED…honestly kinda like it in a sick way. So I may just decide to always stick with short esters so I don’t have to wait weeks for my stuff to kick in.

DG

Just because one is injecting a fast acting drug daily - doesnt mean he cant inject a slow acting drug daily too… or bi-weekly… or whatever the fuck. :wink:

I am currently using eq and prop. And? It makes no difference in my mind.
Although i do agree with DG’s point that if using a slow acting test then a faster acting and very suppressive drug may cause an uncomfortable couple of weeks till the test “kicks” in.
I think that with a frontload of the test though the sexual benefits would be totally immediate - in fact on second thought, the DHT should be there and working on the first injection so…

As for Tren dose, what i have read and would practice personally would be a dose of 250-300mg at the lowest to start and climbing as needed/desired. This is a very modest dose indeed and from what i hear sides should be very minimal at this dose - as would gains in comparison to higher doses (Duhh!)… i am not saying you should use this dose - just that it is a common place to start for those who are wanting to graduate their tren level up slowly.

The use of proviron is not as an anti-estrogen/aromatase inhibitor anymore. There are newer and much much better drugs available these days. Namely Arimidex(Anastrozole), Letrozole and Aromasin - which are the 3 most commonly used AI’s used in this world we know.

Nolvadex and Clomid are SERM’s and are used for mild estrogen control and recovery - both are very similar in action and there is little to suggest much difference between the two. I use Nolva personally, it is used during cycle only when estrogenic sides are apparent (usually when the user is too stupid to have an AI included - take heed) and i also use it during the PCT - whether that is a taper or SERM based PCT. It is a handy drug.
Proviron is best used as an androgen during periods of low androgen levels (it is DHT) during suppressive cycles (the beginning weeks would be a good place for this drug in your cycle due to the point DG made), and it is also used as an ancillary that binds strongly to SHBG, thus theoretically allowing more test free (free test) to build muscle etc. You would want this in the latter half of your cycle… so Proviron throughout wouldnt be too bad a choice IMPO. It does have some anti aromatase properties, but too mild to be relied on primarily for this - consider it a bonus.

Letro apparently has anti-progesterone properties, and with trenbolone being a progestin it agonises the progesterone receptor much like the hormone progesterone dose (that Progesterone is similar to estrogen is all you really need to know, and i worry i have lost you already…) - so a drug that might counter this potential problem is a good do in my mind. I suspect my very low incidence of sides from a drol and test cyle due to the use of letro.

In summary the ancillaries you might choose would be the following:

Adex or Letro - as your AI to combat feminine hormone increases. Adex is better for a beginner, and more than sufficient IMO.

Nolvadex or Clomid - as an emergency estrogen ‘blocker’ and as a recovery aid. Nolva again is usually more well tolerated as Clomiphene has a higher rate of psychological sides. Nolva isnt without its sides too but you shouldnt need to use much of the stuff. If an AI is used correctly then a SERM is rarely if ever warranted. I digress…

Proviron - As a fast acting oral androgen until the Test works and as a testosterone ‘potentiating’ compound. I like it and use it regularly. Others do fine without it. Your choice, wont hurt anything other than the wallet.

I would leave the caber out personally… well actually i would use it, but i would use it as i suspect i am sensitive to prolactins effects on libido especially, and i am looking for some of its other benefits.

Caber isnt really a drug to “have on hand” IMO, maybe you should google it, search it, read what it does, decide to use it, see the cost, and then decide not to use it yourself… :wink: (On the other hand, some do have terrible reactions to progesterone like sides. So it might be nice to have access to the drug for this fact… although back on the other hand - IME those who run an effective anti aromatase regime dont seem to suffer… it is those who think they are too manly for female hormones to exist… :wink:

Hope this helps - as you can see there is a lot of stuff to know - and this is all the basics, although enough to keep you safe for many a cycle once you get comfortable with it all.

Brook

I agree with Brook.

I think some sort of prolactin/progesterone/estrogen defense should always be on hand tho. You may never need it, but what if you do? I’d like to have access to a pharmacy in my dresser drawer. lol

As for tren causing sides I know everybody is different, but I am running a 2:1 test/tren ratio right now (700mg/week: 350mg/week) and I am having ZERO problems so far with gyno nor sex drive, etc (knock on wood right. lol)

I wake up in the morning humping my pillow and stuff…lol jk…but seriously tren is not affecting what the test is doing, nor sex drive. So far anyways…lol

DG

[quote] Brook wrote:

Letro apparently has anti-progesterone properties, and with trenbolone being a progestin it agonises the progesterone receptor much like the hormone progesterone dose (that Progesterone is similar to estrogen is all you really need to know, and i worry i have lost you already…) - so a drug that might counter this potential problem is a good do in my mind. I suspect my very low incidence of sides from a drol and test cyle due to the use of letro.

In summary the ancillaries you might choose would be the following:

Adex or Letro - as your AI to combat feminine hormone increases. Adex is better for a beginner, and more than sufficient IMO.

[/quote]

Was just coming in to post something to this effect.

Good looking out, Brook!