T Nation

Cy - Question on Use of R-ala

whats your thoughts on r-ala for fat loss, more importantly r-ala with post workout carbs?

[quote]bigpump23 wrote:
whats your thoughts on r-ala for fat loss, more importantly r-ala with post workout carbs?[/quote]

If you want to benefit from the increase in endogenous insulin from the post workout drink, I’d avoid taking the r-ALA with it.

As for fat loss, well, it may increase glucose uptake in to both muscle and adipose tissue, so one could argue it’s not something one would want when trying to reduce fat mass, but in practice, I haven’t seen that this is a real issue.

[quote]Cy Willson wrote:
bigpump23 wrote:
whats your thoughts on r-ala for fat loss, more importantly r-ala with post workout carbs?

If you want to benefit from the increase in endogenous insulin from the post workout drink, I’d avoid taking the r-ALA with it.

[/quote]

Really, I was under the impression that you want to help shuttle the carbs back into your muscle and well r-ala is reported to do that so what gives?

[quote]bigpump23 wrote:
Cy Willson wrote:
bigpump23 wrote:
whats your thoughts on r-ala for fat loss, more importantly r-ala with post workout carbs?

If you want to benefit from the increase in endogenous insulin from the post workout drink, I’d avoid taking the r-ALA with it.

Really, I was under the impression that you want to help shuttle the carbs back into your muscle and well r-ala is reported to do that so what gives?[/quote]

Well, for one, food decreases oral bioavailability.

Secondly, if you have a compound which is purported to increase glucose uptake independent of insulin, that indicates a decrease in blood glucose, which would mean less insulin is needed in response to increased blood glucose, which is great when you’re trying to improve insulin sensitivity, but not so great when your main goal is to drive insulin as high as possible. In other words, when you’re trying to benefit from a high level of insulin after a workout, I don’t think you want a compound which decreases blood glucose independently, resulting in less insulin being secreted.

These are my thoughts anyhow. You might want to ask JB his opinion. Last I can remember, he didn’t like the idea of adding in compounds which affected blood glucose either, in respect to Surge use.

Wait! Come to think of it, you should ask Dave Barr too.

Dave’s a smart guy and very knowledgeable in this area, so I’d see what he has to say.

Cy,
What is the shelf life of AAS, I have some test cyp and deca that I got from a us pharmacy that had an late 2003 or early 2004 exp. date. Its all sealed and has never been opened, kept in a cool place, etc. Any good?
I also have some clomid and HCG with around the same exp. dates, are these still usefull?

Thanks for the suggestion Cy! I think ALA with Surge is fine after exercise, because Surge spikes insulin so quickly that it won’t be affected by the ALA. Glucose and insulin are literally peaked by 20 minutes, then it’s all downhill from there. BUT this means that you have to pay more attention to your blood sugar.

Cheers

[quote]Cy Willson wrote:
Wait! Come to think of it, you should ask Dave Barr too.

Dave’s a smart guy and very knowledgeable in this area, so I’d see what he has to say.
[/quote]

[quote]Boss14 wrote:
Cy,
What is the shelf life of AAS, I have some test cyp and deca that I got from a us pharmacy that had an late 2003 or early 2004 exp. date. Its all sealed and has never been opened, kept in a cool place, etc. Any good?
I also have some clomid and HCG with around the same exp. dates, are these still usefull?[/quote]

There really isn’t a single shelf life, it depends on a number of factors, including of the course, the preparation.

As for the nandrolone decanoate and the testosterone cypionate, both of those should have a good 5 years after the expiration date, assuming they were sealed, and in good conditions, as you’ve stated.

The hCG, I’m not as confident with. If it’s already been reconstituted, you definitely should throw it out. If not, refrigerate and keep away from light. Actually, on second thought, if it’s more than 6 months expired, in respect to the hCG, I’d probably throw that out.

The clomiphene is fine.

What’s your opinion on this Mr. Berardi? I thought I remember you saying once that it is probably unnecessary to add r-ALA to your post-workout shake because the post-workout period is marked by excellent insulin sensitivity. So, r-ALA would probablly have very little additional efect.

What do you think?

Mike

i add cinnulin (a type of cinnamin) and 4-hydroxyisoleucine to my Surge. I also take 100 mg r-ala 1/2 hour to an hour before my Surge. If the goal is to just get the carbs in the muscles does it matter whether this occurs with insulin or not. the insulin is the transport mechanism but if something else is doing the transporting does it really matter. Wow this topic really needs to be cleared up. laters pk

[quote]pkradgreek wrote:
i add cinnulin (a type of cinnamin) and 4-hydroxyisoleucine to my Surge. I also take 100 mg r-ala 1/2 hour to an hour before my Surge. If the goal is to just get the carbs in the muscles does it matter whether this occurs with insulin or not. the insulin is the transport mechanism but if something else is doing the transporting does it really matter. Wow this topic really needs to be cleared up. laters pk[/quote]

pk, I would think it does make a difference, as I was under the impression that insulin is very anabolic. So, it’d be an advantage to have a full insulin spike, as opposed to a one blunted with ALA (or something similar).

I’d think it’d make more of a difference while trying to add LBM, and r-ALA could be of benefit while trying to lean out.

Just my thoughts, hope they made sense!

Alright, Cy, JB, DB, or LL, with the above info in mind, when would be a good time to use r-ala?

Bump on this issue. I too was under the impression that items such as ALA and VS were suggested to “shuttle” carbs and amino into the muscle post workout. Should we avoid everything but the Surge components for PW then use the insulin sensitizers throughout the day around this time period, both before and after. Also, I assumed you wanted to take R-ALA with food/meals to create the nutrient partitioning effect.

DH

As usual, Cy is dead on in that we wouldn’t want reduced insulin immediately post workout. This is why I don’t suggest ALA use until after the training session.

I wish I could give more info, but we really don’t know anything about this supplement in healthy humans. In fact, I’m only aware of one such study, and it was funded by a supplement company (meaning that you’ve been hearing about the data for years).

So far (in rats), it doesn’t seem as though ALA has any effect on protein synthesis or breakdown, but can affect muscle glucose and creatine uptake. This effect is greatly reduced following exercise, because exercise itself has such an effect.

As far as ALA use at other times during the day, again we just don’t have much info -it’s all in diabetic/obese rats. ALA may assist in restricting food intake, but may also increase fat storage (though there’s not much evidence for this, it still exists).

Having permanent fat gain from insulin use, I err on the side of caution, and stick to ALA post workout only.

I hope this helps, but fear that it may have only served to create more confusion.

Cheers

[quote]David Barr wrote:
I hope this helps, but fear that it may have only served to create more confusion.

Cheers[/quote]

David, we need these answers and your info helps a lot. I will stop taking the r-ala before my workouts to sse if i notice any difference. I have been getting really sore even though i always take 3 scoops of Surge and have atleast 80 grams protein in the post excercise window. laters pk