Cutting/Lean Mass Cycle Check

MrZ 2014-12-02 18:45:51 UTC #1

Hello all,

A little background, I've been training 10 years, diet and training have never been an issue, am currently 6'1/6'2, 95KG sub 10% bf level but I'm looking to bring the definition up and fat down which I've found difficult to do via diet and training alone without sacrificing too much muscle. Hence I want to stay as close to my current weight as possible whilst cutting up (which I understand may have to involved even gaining some muscle whilst losing fat).

I am by no means new to exercise and nutrition but I am to gear, I have been learning as much as I can and have thus far designed the following for my first cycle and would like someone more experienced than myself to critique it please. I'm keeping doses moderate as it is my first cycle and size isn't the main objective.

Medium [8 week] cycle
W 1-8 Test prop 100mg EOD
W 1-6 Tren enth 100mg E3D
W 1-6 Winny 25mg ED
W 1-8 Adex 0.25mg ED (taper down in last week)

Optional:
W 2-4 Clen 80mcg ED (taper up)
W 6-8 Clen 120mcg ED (taper up)

PCT will be nolva/clomid

Questions:
Am I correct in thinking 8 weeks is too short to bother with test enth; if suitable, I'd prefer to run enth weekly instead? Do I have an alternative to test prop?
Again, would I be better suited to a shorter ester tren - ace instead of enth?
Should winny be used no more than 6 weeks because of its hepato toxicity? Mast or primo more appropriate?
Role of HCG in this type of cycle instead of just PCT SERMS?
Throw in var or something else W 6-8 to make up the rest of prolong the tren/winny instead?

cycobushmaster 2014-12-03 01:40:40 UTC #2

MrZ wrote:
Hello all,

A little background, I've been training 10 years, diet and training have never been an issue, am currently 6'1/6'2, 95KG sub 10% bf level but I'm looking to bring the definition up and fat down which I've found difficult to do via diet and training alone without sacrificing too much muscle. Hence I want to stay as close to my current weight as possible whilst cutting up (which I understand may have to involved even gaining some muscle whilst losing fat).

I am by no means new to exercise and nutrition but I am to gear, I have been learning as much as I can and have thus far designed the following for my first cycle and would like someone more experienced than myself to critique it please. I'm keeping doses moderate as it is my first cycle and size isn't the main objective.

Medium [8 week] cycle
W 1-8 Test prop 100mg EOD
W 1-6 Tren enth 100mg E3D
W 1-6 Winny 25mg ED
W 1-8 Adex 0.25mg ED (taper down in last week)

Optional:
W 2-4 Clen 80mcg ED (taper up)
W 6-8 Clen 120mcg ED (taper up)

PCT will be nolva/clomid

Questions:
Am I correct in thinking 8 weeks is too short to bother with test enth; if suitable, I'd prefer to run enth weekly instead? Do I have an alternative to test prop?
Again, would I be better suited to a shorter ester tren - ace instead of enth?
Should winny be used no more than 6 weeks because of its hepato toxicity? Mast or primo more appropriate?
Role of HCG in this type of cycle instead of just PCT SERMS?
Throw in var or something else W 6-8 to make up the rest of prolong the tren/winny instead?

well, you can use test c/cyp for an 8 week cycle, but you lose some of the benefits of the shorter cycle. for instance, you still need to wait a couple weeks to do PCT. with test prop, you can go from the cycle immediately into PCT....

i think you could run test prop, winny (50 mg/d) and clen (2 wk off/on and even in PCT) and you'd see good results.

MrZ 2014-12-03 22:31:58 UTC #3

Thanks for the reply, so you feel as though theres no value in having tren in the stack and I should up the winny dose instead.

As far as I was aware, including all three covers most areas ideal for fat loss in regards to binding the appropriate receptors and exhibiting the necessary effects for cutting...

cycobushmaster 2014-12-04 22:17:37 UTC #4

well, Tren will make it better.... i just don't think you need it, based off what you've said. and adding in tren typically requires some other adjustments...

MrZ 2014-12-04 22:47:16 UTC #5

Ok got it, I will do that. Just for my learning, can you expand on what you mean by 'other adjustments' when using tren?

thanks

Reed 2014-12-04 23:04:22 UTC #6

There is always a need, room, and a want for tren in any cycle no matter the goal.... In my totally biased uneducated opinion

eatmorefood 2014-12-04 23:58:00 UTC #7

Tren will require prolactin supps. Tren is very strong for a first cycle. Also confused by the use of Tren E. Seem like the wrong ester for this cycle (if you were to run the tren).

cycobushmaster 2014-12-06 02:15:48 UTC #8

^yeah, Tren will most likely elevate prolactin. not as bad as deca, but it still could be an issue.

personally, i would never run tren with clen, as they both can increase blood pressure.

if you want a simple way to add to the fat burning effect, you could run some yohimbine in the "off" weeks from clen. start low, and taper up (up to .2 mg/kg bodyweight).

FWIW, yohimbine is an antagonist to the alpha receptors. this means that it "opens their door," so you can burn fat. alpha receptors are often referred to as the "stubborn fat." their are a couple issue with yohimbine.... it's a stimulant, it can raise HR/BP, and it does not work with insulin is high, so it's best to take in the AM on an empty stomach.

Yogi1 2014-12-05 15:39:49 UTC #9

hmm, I'd never considered running yohimbine in between weeks of clen...

Reed 2014-12-05 15:48:36 UTC #10

Man I am so glad I have never had to waste money on AI and Prolactin. I just don't get it. I have been experimenting lately with Tren only 200mgs a week and haven't seen a single problem with prolactin, libido, or anything.

ty_ty13 2014-12-05 17:40:13 UTC #11

Tren enanthate for 8 weeks is a waste.

run tren ace at 400mg per week.

MrZ 2014-12-05 18:51:46 UTC #12

Thanks a lot for all the replies so far.

So I was correct in suspecting I should run ace over enth if I go with tren and I'll run some caber alongside for the prolactin.

I will probably save the clen for the off weeks then because of the BP issues you guys have mentioned and alternate that will yohimbine.

Thanks a lot

Yogi1 2014-12-05 22:39:09 UTC #13

man I am SO SENSITIVE to prolactin sides it's unreal!

Reed 2014-12-05 22:55:33 UTC #14

Have never gotten anything like that. I get a lot of water retention when in test but that is about it. I have gyno from when I was a kid but it has never gotten worse with cycling so I really don't know sometimes lol.

eatmorefood 2014-12-06 01:31:12 UTC #15

Read good (and bad) things about it but never tried it myself. Sure I will give it a go round at some point.

cycobushmaster 2014-12-06 02:14:32 UTC #16

it's interesting.... a lot of companies screwed up the perception of yohimbine by adding it to every fat burner, but it only seems effective first thing in the morning or on a low-carb diet.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Alpha 2-antagonist compounds and lipid mobilization: evidence for a lipid mobilizing effect of oral yohimbine in healthy male volunteers.

J Galitzky, M Taouis, M Berlan, D Rivière, M Garrigues and M Lafontan, European journal of clinical investigation, Dec 1988

Investigations were carried out to analyse the interactions of alpha 2-antagonists (yohimbine, idazoxan, SK & F-86,466) with human fat cell alpha 2-adrenoceptors. All the alpha 2-antagonists enhanced the lipolytic potencies of epinephrine with an order of potency: yohimbine greater than idazoxan greater than SK & F-86,466; the same order was also found in 3H-yohimbine competition studies on human fat cell membranes. The most potent agent, yohimbine, was administered orally in humans to define the conditions of appearance and the time-course of a putative lipid-mobilizing action. Oral yohimbine administration (0.2 mg kg-1) elevated plasma glycerol and non-esterified fatty acids in fasting healthy subjects without significant action on heart rate or blood pressure during the time-course of the experiment. The lipid-mobilizing action of yohimbine was reinforced during physical exercise, completely suppressed after a meal and partially blocked by administration of propranolol (0.5 mg kg-1; 60 min before yohimbine). Plasma norepinephrine concentrations were increased (40-50%) after oral yohimbine administration. The rise in plasma catecholamine concentration elicited by yohimbine was not modified by propranolol treatment. The lipid-mobilizing effect of yohimbine could be attributable to: (i) the increase in synaptic norepinephrine with a resultant increment in lipolysis by beta-adrenergic agonism; (ii) a decrease in alpha 2-adrenoceptor stimulation of human fat cell alpha 2-adrenoceptors; (iii) a blockade of presynaptic alpha 2-adrenoceptors. The use of highly selective alpha 2-antagonists will allow investigations into alpha 2-adrenoceptors, which may represent a novel locus for pharmacological intervention in lipid-mobilization strategies.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

^it does increase norepinephrine a lot (40-50%), so for some people, this can really get you wired. for people like me with ADHD, it's damn near as good as adderral...

GoCal 2014-12-08 05:36:07 UTC #17

You have done some research and certainly have an understanding of what you are planning to use.

Here are a few thoughts.

Stick to one ester, either prop or enanthate. It makes it easier on both your pinning routine and also on planning for PCT. You will have tren E in your system long after all the test has cleared or you will have to continue the test for a few weeks after you stop pinning the tren e.

You are doing lots of compounds for a first cycle. I really think test and maybe one oral is what everyone should start with. You may get "test flu" you may not, but with multiple compounds you won't know which is causing what to adjust. If you stick with your planned cycle and do everything including clen your body is going to be one strange place to reside! Expect to feel straaaange.

The tren train is a mother fucker. Some love it, some hate it, some love it but it hates them. At least wait until your second cycle to know the difference in how tren affects you versus test alone. Speaking of cycles, cycles are like potato chips, hardly anyone ever does one. The only people who really don't ever have a second is if the first one just sucks, which is usually the case of poor planning.

Good luck and you definitely sound like you are doing the right things.

MrZ 2014-12-17 23:39:52 UTC #18

GoCal, thanks a lot for your reply, I've taken it all in.