T Nation

Cutting - Diet and Roids?

Hi,
I’m in the start (1st week done) of my “cutter” cycle (test e, primo and mast)

I have read a lot about dieting and roids… but i have not yet well understood how much calories i can cut down…

i want to rip as many fat as possible.

I’m thinking to add HIIT session to speed the process, but i would like to know from more experienced guy:

  1. if i have to wait until enanthate drugs kick in before really cut down calories
  2. how much can i cut (calories wise)

as general rules i’ll remove carbo, use weekly refeed and take up to 3gr or protein per kg of body mass.

[quote]cadav wrote:
Hi,
I’m in the start (1st week done) of my “cutter” cycle (test e, primo and mast)

I have read a lot about dieting and roids… but i have not yet well understood how much calories i can cut down…

i want to rip as many fat as possible.

I’m thinking to add HIIT session to speed the process, but i would like to know from more experienced guy:

  1. if i have to wait until enanthate drugs kick in before really cut down calories
  2. how much can i cut (calories wise)

as general rules i’ll remove carbo, use weekly refeed and take up to 3gr or protein per kg of body mass.

[/quote]

I only tried it once and it was tough. Roids tend to make me hungry as hell so keeping a diet was a bitch. Also you naturally put on some h20 with juice so at the beginning you’ll be wondering why the hell your not losing as much weight as you thought you would. I found that Test-E, proviron and fina was an sick combo. I lost a crap load of fat and actually gained muscle.

I cut right from day 1 and shot for 3 lbs a week (so a 10500cal cal reduction per WEEK). I based this off of what I would eat while juicing, not my normal BMR. I started with 3 cardio sessions and slowly ramped them up to 5 a week. 2 HIT style ones and 3 steady state.

I kept the HIT ones on my heavy lifting days to aid CNS recovery. For weights I hit 2 heavy days and 2 circuit days. I used 1-2 exercises for my heavy days for a WestSide style Max effort workout. The circuit days I got everything else in.

Protein I kept at around 2-2.5g/lb and at a low fat, moderate carb diet. I think the low card shit is great for natural dieting but shit for juice. No need to eat lots of fat to keep your test levels up when your doing that artificially. Good luck!

Read Thib’s article Destroying Fat:
War Room Strategies to Maximize Fat Loss.

[quote]gettinbigger wrote:

I only tried it once and it was tough. Roids tend to make me hungry as hell so keeping a diet was a bitch.
[/quote]
I’m lucky. I have strong resistance to hunger…

how much :)? which bf% do you have before/after cycle?

how do you define your needs under cycle?

I hate cardio :
This is the real problem… I’ll need all my will to add cardio sessions :slight_smile:

By now I train (with weight) with a days split… ~1h x day

wow :slight_smile: really a lot of proteins :slight_smile:
I have to duplicate my total :slight_smile:

[quote]
Good luck![/quote]

Thanks :slight_smile:

[quote]thetruepitbull wrote:
Read Thib’s article Destroying Fat:
War Room Strategies to Maximize Fat Loss.
[/quote]

thanks you for the hint.
I have read it… I just need some info regarding roids “modifications”

[quote]cadav wrote:
gettinbigger wrote:

I only tried it once and it was tough. Roids tend to make me hungry as hell so keeping a diet was a bitch.

I’m lucky. I have strong resistance to hunger…

I lost a crap load of fat and actually gained muscle.

how much :)? which bf% do you have before/after cycle?

I based this off of what I would eat while juicing, not my normal BMR.

how do you define your needs under cycle?

I started with 3 cardio sessions and slowly ramped them up to 5 a week. 2 HIT style ones and 3 steady state.

I hate cardio :
This is the real problem… I’ll need all my will to add cardio sessions :slight_smile:

By now I train (with weight) with a days split… ~1h x day

Protein I kept at around 2-2.5g/lb and at a low fat, moderate carb diet.

wow :slight_smile: really a lot of proteins :slight_smile:
I have to duplicate my total :slight_smile:

Good luck!

Thanks :slight_smile:

[/quote]

12 week cycle (ended diet after 9 weeks, used the last 3 to bring up my metabolism and prep for PCT)
weight before: 231@17.5%
weight at end: 205@7%
weight after PCT(8 weeks later): 210@8.5%

All the bodyfat stuff was taken with plastic callipers by my wife so I’m sure there was some error. But the readings where fairly consistant every 2 weeks.

I define my needs by experience. Since I’m an endomorph and prone to fat gain I always keep a food log so I went back and looked at how much I ate while on this drug combo and how much my weight fluctuated. Then I just adjusted for my current goals. Really thats just a place to start. I had to reduce calories about every 3 weeks to keep my fat lose where I wanted it.

Protein was the last thing I would reduce. I always dropped fat and carbs before protein. The only time I dropped my protein is when I started having a serious lack of energy. I also used periodic re-feeds when I started feeling like crap. But I kept them very healthy. Ususally a bunch of oatmeal with skim milk.

Unless your crazy huge and already pretty lean I don’t think you have too much to worry about when it comes to muscle loss while juicin as long as you get in enough protein and heavy training.

[quote]gettinbigger wrote:

Unless your crazy huge and already pretty lean I don’t think you have too much to worry about when it comes to muscle loss while juicin as long as you get in enough protein and heavy training.
[/quote]

by now (may be in future ;)…) I’m not crazy huge neither ripped :slight_smile:

i’m around 17% and I want to drop fat to 10%. I’m 211.2lbs x 170cm…
I have planned a 10weeks… How do you compute the amount of calories to cut to get your target (you wrote about -10000cal/week)?

thanks for your help!

Fat loss is very subjective, almost too subjective to give a definitive answer on the amount of cals you will have to drop to reach your goal. You’re just gonna have to play around.

I would suggest trying to drop fat prior to your cycle, like a few months out to get a better handle on what differences in training and nutrition do to you.

Starting a food log is a great way to see how minor differences in nutrition affect your performance and body comp. I would figure out how many calories and grams of P/F/C you are consuming now and make adjustments from there.

Give yourself enough time on cycle to make those changes. Also, a consistent diet is easier to keep track of, especially when dieting.

[quote]thetruepitbull wrote:

I would suggest trying to drop fat prior to your cycle, like a few months out to get a better handle on what differences in training and nutrition do to you.

[/quote]
I have started some month ago.
this “season” is all dedicated to “quality”

I already follow a diet plan.
I have started dropping fat with it but now i don’t want to lose strenght neither mass. Also I’m a FFB so I had learn the hard way to understand my body. And it is a bitch :). My metabolism adapt really fast to cal. drop…

[quote]cadav wrote:
thetruepitbull wrote:

I would suggest trying to drop fat prior to your cycle, like a few months out to get a better handle on what differences in training and nutrition do to you.

I have started some month ago.
this “season” is all dedicated to “quality”

Starting a food log is a great way to see how minor differences in nutrition affect your performance and body comp. I would figure out how many calories and grams of P/F/C you are consuming now and make adjustments from there.

I already follow a diet plan.
I have started dropping fat with it but now i don’t want to lose strenght neither mass. Also I’m a FFB so I had learn the hard way to understand my body. And it is a bitch :). My metabolism adapt really fast to cal. drop…

[/quote]

If you adapt fast to calorie reductions, a good strategy is to mix up the reduced calorie days with refeed days on a regular basis, for example two days reduced cals, one day slight surplus, three days reduced cals, one day surplus. Then repeat.

[quote]cadav wrote:
gettinbigger wrote:

Unless your crazy huge and already pretty lean I don’t think you have too much to worry about when it comes to muscle loss while juicin as long as you get in enough protein and heavy training.

by now (may be in future ;)…) I’m not crazy huge neither ripped :slight_smile:

i’m around 17% and I want to drop fat to 10%. I’m 211.2lbs x 170cm…
I have planned a 10weeks… How do you compute the amount of calories to cut to get your target (you wrote about -10000cal/week)?

thanks for your help![/quote]

Pitbull is right. Its really impossible to compute something like that without a detailed history. There are so many factors that come into play for calorie burning and its taken years for me to get even a remote grasp on my own body’s needs/abilities.

If I had to do it all over again I would have dieted down naturally to about 12% body fat. Until you start getting below that you shouldn’t lose any muscle if your not trying to lose more than a pound a week (in general…everyone is different). Then I would have split the cycle. done 6 weeks of intense diet shooting for a .5-1% drop in bodyfat a week.

the next 6 weeks I would SLOWLY bring up my metabolism while trying to stay as lean as possible. That should be good for at least a few pounds of solid muscle gain with no more than 1% fat gain if even. Then I could start my PCT from a much better point. What ever you do, don’t diet during your PCT or for quite some time after until your test is back to normal. Otherwise you will lose mad muscle.

If you are already losing fat naturally I would keep your calories the same. You might want to adjust your macronutrient ratio’s to a more steroid friendly range. I wouldn’t do low carb. I respond best to moderate carb (30-40%) and lower fat (20%max). Food choice is very important. You need to eat very clean and keep the majority of the carbs in the AM and pre/post workout.

[quote]sharetrader wrote:
If you adapt fast to calorie reductions, a good strategy is to mix up the reduced calorie days with refeed days on a regular basis, for example two days reduced cals, one day slight surplus, three days reduced cals, one day surplus. Then repeat.[/quote]

nice idea!
By now I’m working on a similar tactics but with larger “interval”. I have placed refeed every 3weeks… I’ll try your suggested strategy