T Nation

Cutting Cycle Questions


#1

Hey all,
I have a buddy of mine that is a powerlifter and he is looking to drop weight down to the next weight class without losing any strength. He approached me about some ideas he had for a short cutting cycle, but as I've never done one before, I wanted to float it past you all. He's 5'9, 248 and wants to shave twenty pounds off without losing any muscle. I'm not sure what his lifts are as we go to different gyms (about half an hour apart). He's done two cycles before, both of Test E @ 500mg a week for 10 weeks.

To make a long story short, he asked me what I thought about dosing Oxandrolone and Clenbuterol. Something like this:

Anavar-60mgs/day
Clen-ramping up from 40mcg up to 100mcg/day

Two weeks on, Two weeks off, Two weeks on.

His reasoning is that he's paranoid about losing any strength at all and so he wants to make sure there's a two week stasis period between the two cutting cycles so that he can ensure he doesn't drop weight too fast.

As I said, my knowledge for cutting cycles is purely acadamic, which is why I wanted to get everyone's take on it. I had suggested running Test P and Mast, but he is looking to drop weight and he claims the Test really makes him bloated.

Thanks in advance.


#2

I’m not a PL, but isn’t the next weight class 220? Losing 28 lbs and not losing some strength is one hell of a tough act, particularly if he’s doing it over a short period of time. If test P makes him bloated (not enough AI?) perhaps he could run hCG and mast or tren (or both).


#3

Firstly - he is for all intents a natural, so other than his body mass affecting his pull, he shouldn’t lose too much strength IMO - depending on the amount of weight that needs to be lost.

However - as he isn’t in need of being 3% or dry as a bone, he has no need to stick to non-aromatising androgens only. He should run something like Test @ 500mg and Tren @ 350mg. (Masteron is also a good idea from you - i chose trenbolone simply as it is like a more effective masteron - better strength, better muscle, better fat loss, better results).

On those AAS and with the correct diet (ABSOLUTELY essential), he will likely put ON muscle AND increase strength while DROPPING fat. I say this as he has only done 2 cycles which in my book doesn’t make someone particularly ‘un-natural’ - as in he won’t be pulling more than he could have without using AAS.
If he always used Suspension and Halo it would be different :wink:

As for being bloated - there are two points to consider here:
First, with the CORRECT use of an AI, bloat is not an issue that would affect goals like this - not in the slightest. If he really does blow up with water - and some do, then tell him to use letro. that will fix it… :wink:
Secondly, bloating even WITHOUT an AI would not be an issue in achieving this goal.
It is a problem that people seem to think that the knowledge applicable to Bodybuilders applies to all. You wouldn’t feed a dog cat food would ya?!
Simply put, while water does weigh a lot, it will be dropped very fast post cycle and honestly would only really account for around 5lbs of weight if he used 500mg of a testosterone with moderate AI use (as a guess).

Your friend needs to understand that real world knowledge and specific application of AAS differs significantly from what most will take away from getting all info online, and this means Test will be very useful to him as a Powerlifter… :wink:


#4

[quote] Brook wrote:
Firstly - he is for all intents a natural, so other than his body mass affecting his pull, he shouldn’t lose too much strength IMO - depending on the amount of weight that needs to be lost.

However - as he isn’t in need of being 3% or dry as a bone, he has no need to stick to non-aromatising androgens only. He should run something like Test @ 500mg and Tren @ 350mg. (Masteron is also a good idea from you - i chose trenbolone simply as it is like a more effective masteron - better strength, better muscle, better fat loss, better results).

On those AAS and with the correct diet (ABSOLUTELY essential), he will likely put ON muscle AND increase strength while DROPPING fat. I say this as he has only done 2 cycles which in my book doesn’t make someone particularly ‘un-natural’ - as in he won’t be pulling more than he could have without using AAS.
If he always used Suspension and Halo it would be different :wink:

As for being bloated - there are two points to consider here:
First, with the CORRECT use of an AI, bloat is not an issue that would affect goals like this - not in the slightest. If he really does blow up with water - and some do, then tell him to use letro. that will fix it… :wink:
Secondly, bloating even WITHOUT an AI would not be an issue in achieving this goal.
It is a problem that people seem to think that the knowledge applicable to Bodybuilders applies to all. You wouldn’t feed a dog cat food would ya?!
Simply put, while water does weigh a lot, it will be dropped very fast post cycle and honestly would only really account for around 5lbs of weight if he used 500mg of a testosterone with moderate AI use (as a guess).

Your friend needs to understand that real world knowledge and specific application of AAS differs significantly from what most will take away from getting all info online, and this means Test will be very useful to him as a Powerlifter… ;)[/quote]

@whotookmyname- I’m not sure what the next weightclass would be. I’m really not all that familiar with powerlifting. The only reason my friend came to me with this is because we’ve had more than a few discussions concerning AAS and it’s effects on the body and he respects my opinion on the matter. I think that’s mainly due to the ignorance alot of people seem to have with PED’s. TBH, I am not nearly well versed enough in thier uses as I would like to be.

@Brook- Good advice as always. I had told him that most of the water would vanish with proper PCT, but I didn’t mention the letro. And he does bloat like a bitch, haha. But yeah, his previous cycles I’m fairly certain he was using adex.

I’ll take your suggestion to him because as you said, significant strength and muscle gains to be had with those compounds as opposed to Anavar. I’d imagine Anavar would produce very mild gains at best?

Looming over all of this is that he eats like a powerlifter, lol. I told him he needed his diet on point and there at least I’m pretty damn knowledgable so I think that, combined with AAS will give some nice results.

Thanks!


#5

x2 on brooks comments…

test, tren and/or mast + an AI to control estrogen is a great cutting stack…maybe a fat burner in there as well.

I happen to like HOT-ROX a lot but whatever fat burner he likes he could add it in as well to give a little extra. If he has used clen before and likes it i see no reason not to include it…if using clen I would maybe throw it into the post cycle instead of the actual cycle though.

the real key as brook said is diet though…you can’t eat pop tarts and expect to drop fat no matter what gear you are on.

he can add in morning cardio to really step things up but strict diet and hard training on the above compounds should do the trick.

I am not a fan of the 2 on 2 off approach for dieting…it’s a long process that takes months for most, 8 weeks should be the minimum cycle length if he has that much to lose.

I would dose them as follows:

W 1-8 Test - 500mg/w
W 1-8 Tren - 200mg/w
W 1-8 Mast - 200mg/w
W 1-12 Adex - 0.25mg ED and increase if needed…taper during PCT
W 4-12 HOT-ROX (I find 1 cap in the am is enough for me for the first month and then bump it to one in the morning and after lunch)
W 3-8 HCG 200iu 3x/w
W 4-10 Caber 0.5mg 2x/w

I have a friend that is doing this exact cycle and he is seeing amazing results (he is using all enth esters and after just 3 weeks he is up nearly 15 pounds but has lost 5%bf in the process).

The real key though is diet. If he eats the way he normally does it will end up being a bulking cycle.

FG


#6

[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
x2 on brooks comments…

test, tren and/or mast + an AI to control estrogen is a great cutting stack…maybe a fat burner in there as well.

I happen to like HOT-ROX a lot but whatever fat burner he likes he could add it in as well to give a little extra. If he has used clen before and likes it i see no reason not to include it…if using clen I would maybe throw it into the post cycle instead of the actual cycle though.

the real key as brook said is diet though…you can’t eat pop tarts and expect to drop fat no matter what gear you are on.

he can add in morning cardio to really step things up but strict diet and hard training on the above compounds should do the trick.

I am not a fan of the 2 on 2 off approach for dieting…it’s a long process that takes months for most, 8 weeks should be the minimum cycle length if he has that much to lose.

I would dose them as follows:

W 1-8 Test - 500mg/w
W 1-8 Tren - 200mg/w
W 1-8 Mast - 200mg/w
W 1-12 Adex - 0.25mg ED and increase if needed…taper during PCT
W 4-12 HOT-ROX (I find 1 cap in the am is enough for me for the first month and then bump it to one in the morning and after lunch)
W 3-8 HCG 200iu 3x/w
W 4-10 Caber 0.5mg 2x/w

I have a friend that is doing this exact cycle and he is seeing amazing results (he is using all enth esters and after just 3 weeks he is up nearly 15 pounds but has lost 5%bf in the process).

The real key though is diet. If he eats the way he normally does it will end up being a bulking cycle.

FG [/quote]

Thanks FG. The cycle you outlined is very similar to the one that popped into my head, minus the caber. I’ve heard varying reports on tren and prolactin. That’s definitely a good idea as well. How’s your friend liking Tren Enth?

Also, I’m not disagreeing with you on throwing clen in PCT, I’m just curious as to your reasoning behind including it at the end?

I totally agree with the diet. I think that’s one thing people sometimes forget with AAS. It doesn’t give you a blank check with what you eat. I will say my first cycle I was probably too liberal with carbs (I don’t tolerate them very well, goes straight to my waist.) In my case I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I have a voracious appetite while one AAS. I have a naturally high metabolism as it is, but whenever I’m on cycle I just can’t stop eating. This past cycle I planned for that and had my diet nailed down and planned out prior to starting and the results showed it.

Thanks again.


#7

A little off topic but also not, I guess it is a story for the newbie lurkers:

There is a lad i came to know who was enquiring about Drol. He is a very standard 20yr old kid by my book - smokes weed, does coke - the usual kid around my way. Say 5’9" and 160lbs dripping wet to be generous.

So of course i tell him exactly what he doesn’t want to hear, knowing that is the last i will hear (once most hear how much actual work is needed in knowing what you are taking - let alone the exercise, they back right off!)

I see him 2 weeks later in my gym for the first time ever, he says he is using Dbol now and he is real excited. I was exactly the same at one time except i did more drugs…

Point is - i saw him the other day getting on a bus - it is now about 2 months after i saw him at the gym that day, and he is exactly the same shape and size as before.

His blank cheque must have bounced! :wink:


#8

My 2 cents

Eating like a powerlifter: bad. I eat SLIGHTLY cleaner than your average PLer and have slightly less gut to show for it. If he truly follows the old school Tate/Wendler Hostess-style bulk, he will likely see some nice fat loss from simple and non drastic diet modification. It will also be a pace that will give him time to adapt from a lifting standpoint.

In addition, if he doesn’t do any real GPP work (not uncommon), then adding that in even in moderation will bring results. It should also actually help his lifts as well.

Its hard to lose that kind of weight and not see strength dip a little. That addipose tissue provides leverage. Losing a gut will most likely hurt his squat, as the saying goes: a big pot for a big squat.

As far as PED I will say this: on a maintenance diet, I gained significant strength on halo/suspension with minimal weight gain. In fact, I had similar but less dramatic results with TE. In the end, for me it came down to the drugs supporting training objectives and diet, not vis versa.

Hope I was helpful.


#9

The caber is something that is still open for debate with tren…most people seem to think it is needed, others think it is not and people think that only because most tren out there is actually nandrolone…I can’t say for sure what I think because I have never tried finaplex pellet tren to know what it does to me to compare it to the UGL stuff I use. I have the means to get my gear tested and maybe some day I will to verify it.

I recommend throwing clen into the pct because it has a reputation for maintaining lean muscle mass which is obviously of benifit during post cycle when your hormonal state is less than optimal, it also has a rep for enlarging cardiac muscle which when you add test/tren/mast and heavy lifting/cardio to try to lose weight I think you can see the potential “perfect storm”…you are supplying your body with everything it needs to build muscle, working the heart vigorously, and using a substance which is known to enlarge cardiac muscle. It will probably only kill to those with a genetic pre-disposition to the problem (I can’t remember the name but it is when the cardiac muscle occludes the valve and literally stops blood from entering that chamber of the heart because it is too hypertropied to let the blood in, it seems to happen to basketball and football players the most)…do you really want to find out if that is you? This is why I have always opted for the HOT-ROX instead.

My friend likes the tren enth very much…he used tren ace before and had a lot of sides (he was injecting EOD and was only stacking it with winny so he couldn’t get an erection by week 4 but that is another story), he is doing very well on the enth so far with minimal sides (just a lot of sweating which is to be expected no matter how steady you keep the dose), i recommended he use a low dose (200mg/w) to ensure that he would tolerate it. Stacked with test and mast it seems to go very very well. The test keeps libido high, the tren kills appetite, and the mast keeps you from getting too lethargic so cardio isn’t too painful.

In the end diet is KING…it took me 2 cycles to figure out how I needed to eat but once I got it my body comp improved by leaps and bounds…now when friends ask me to help them figure out their cycle my first question is usually about their diet…you can make any compound work like a bulking agent or a cutting agent depending on how you eat and train…some work better for one or the other (due to appetite or estrogen) but in the end it is not the steroid that is going to make you lose fat or bulk up, it’s your diet and training.

Hope this helps.

FG


#10

[quote]OTS1 wrote:
My 2 cents

Eating like a powerlifter: bad. I eat SLIGHTLY cleaner than your average PLer and have slightly less gut to show for it. If he truly follows the old school Tate/Wendler Hostess-style bulk, he will likely see some nice fat loss from simple and non drastic diet modification. It will also be a pace that will give him time to adapt from a lifting standpoint.

In addition, if he doesn’t do any real GPP work (not uncommon), then adding that in even in moderation will bring results. It should also actually help his lifts as well.

Its hard to lose that kind of weight and not see strength dip a little. That addipose tissue provides leverage. Losing a gut will most likely hurt his squat, as the saying goes: a big pot for a big squat.

As far as PED I will say this: on a maintenance diet, I gained significant strength on halo/suspension with minimal weight gain. In fact, I had similar but less dramatic results with TE. In the end, for me it came down to the drugs supporting training objectives and diet, not vis versa.

Hope I was helpful. [/quote]

test is a perfectly fine drug to cut on…you just need to diet and control estrogen…i have trouble not eating anything/everything when I am on test so the tren helps…EQ was the worst cutting drug I ever did because I couldn’t stop eating (I did gain a lot of mass though).


#11

[quote] Brook wrote:
A little off topic but also not, I guess it is a story for the newbie lurkers:

There is a lad i came to know who was enquiring about Drol. He is a very standard 20yr old kid by my book - smokes weed, does coke - the usual kid around my way. Say 5’9" and 160lbs dripping wet to be generous.

So of course i tell him exactly what he doesn’t want to hear, knowing that is the last i will hear (once most hear how much actual work is needed in knowing what you are taking - let alone the exercise, they back right off!)

I see him 2 weeks later in my gym for the first time ever, he says he is using Dbol now and he is real excited. I was exactly the same at one time except i did more drugs…

Point is - i saw him the other day getting on a bus - it is now about 2 months after i saw him at the gym that day, and he is exactly the same shape and size as before.

His blank cheque must have bounced! ;)[/quote]

This is exactly what I am talking about.


#12

[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
The caber is something that is still open for debate with tren…most people seem to think it is needed, others think it is not and people think that only because most tren out there is actually nandrolone…I can’t say for sure what I think because I have never tried finaplex pellet tren to know what it does to me to compare it to the UGL stuff I use. I have the means to get my gear tested and maybe some day I will to verify it.

I recommend throwing clen into the pct because it has a reputation for maintaining lean muscle mass which is obviously of benifit during post cycle when your hormonal state is less than optimal, it also has a rep for enlarging cardiac muscle which when you add test/tren/mast and heavy lifting/cardio to try to lose weight I think you can see the potential “perfect storm”…you are supplying your body with everything it needs to build muscle, working the heart vigorously, and using a substance which is known to enlarge cardiac muscle. It will probably only kill to those with a genetic pre-disposition to the problem (I can’t remember the name but it is when the cardiac muscle occludes the valve and literally stops blood from entering that chamber of the heart because it is too hypertropied to let the blood in, it seems to happen to basketball and football players the most)…do you really want to find out if that is you? This is why I have always opted for the HOT-ROX instead.

My friend likes the tren enth very much…he used tren ace before and had a lot of sides (he was injecting EOD and was only stacking it with winny so he couldn’t get an erection by week 4 but that is another story), he is doing very well on the enth so far with minimal sides (just a lot of sweating which is to be expected no matter how steady you keep the dose), i recommended he use a low dose (200mg/w) to ensure that he would tolerate it. Stacked with test and mast it seems to go very very well. The test keeps libido high, the tren kills appetite, and the mast keeps you from getting too lethargic so cardio isn’t too painful.

In the end diet is KING…it took me 2 cycles to figure out how I needed to eat but once I got it my body comp improved by leaps and bounds…now when friends ask me to help them figure out their cycle my first question is usually about their diet…you can make any compound work like a bulking agent or a cutting agent depending on how you eat and train…some work better for one or the other (due to appetite or estrogen) but in the end it is not the steroid that is going to make you lose fat or bulk up, it’s your diet and training.

Hope this helps.

FG[/quote]

Thanks for the reply. I think you were referring to a myocardial infarction(sp)? I’ve heard of that (it increasing cardiac muscle) but never thought to put it at the end of the cycle.

Good to hear about the Tren Enth. I prefer longer esters if only because I’m not big on ED injections. I know a lot of you guys are comfortable with that, but I’m just not a big needle fan. I’ve given people IVs before, including people that were pretty torn up, but sticking a needle in me still makes me nervous, even after several cycles lol.

I sent my buddy your layout for the cycle and it looks like that is the direction he’s headed in. Finally convinced him that the bloat would only be temporary and worth retaining muscle mass, lol. Hopefully the tren kills his appetite as well and if he follows the dietary plan we’ve laid out I’m pretty certain he’s gonna drop weight no problem. Hell, going low carb and eating clean will probably drop ten pounds right away. Cardio and consistency along with AAS should do the rest.

Thanks again for the reply…very insightful.


#13

The AI will help to reduce the bloat from the test.

The other huge factor is carb intake. Going low carb really reduces the amount of bloat on cycle.

If he just focuses on getting the required amount of protein and lots of healthy fats then you will usually be too full to even want carbs. The Tren should do the trick to help curb any cravings for garbage but it takes a lot less willpower when you are already full on good stuff. When I am doing it I keep a protein shaker bottle with me (in my car because I am on the road all the time) and if I get hungry I will buy a bottle of water, mix it up, and down a shake…then I am fine. If you are always prepared then you are far less likely to make shit food choices. The other huge factor is booze, if you don’t have the willpower to cut it out you at least need to cut down so that you are only drinking one or maybe two nights a week…this was the hardest part for me because I was used to downing a couple of beers to finish off my night.


#14

Dude… GPP… seriously. I wouldn’t recommend that a competitive powerlifter start runnuing 5k’s, but there are lots of things that he can do that will keep intensity high, and duration short that will work:

Tabatas
Sled Dragging
Prowler Pusshing
Hill Running
Suicides (oh, I know some of you remember those)
Sledgehammering
Bar complexes
Even just a Parisi style dynamic warm up

Introduce slowly though, as if you’re not used to this kinda stuff, you will be SORE.

If he doesn’t do these things now, he will be pleasantly surprised by the results. I have found that doing GPP/“conditioning” work helps keep my joints healthy as well, and will enable him to not run out of gas for that third pull on meet day.