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Cutting and Bulking - Need Help

Info

Im a 16 years old boy, 167 pounds with 15 bodyfat, im about to start a cut tomorrow, i will cut for around 2 months to get my bodyfat down to 10 bodyfat, so i can start a lean bulk, at the moment my body is very bloaty and saggy, so i wanna lean out so i can keep control on my fat as im bulking, i know i will look skinny, but i think i need it to feel good as im bulking, im aiming to lose 1kg a week.

Cutting diet:

Breakfast:
1 Cup Green Tea
6 Egg whites
2 Whole eggs.

Lunch:
120g tuna
Salad
Broccoli
Almonds

Dinner:
125g Salmon
Broccoli
10g almonds

Pre-Workout:
Banana
35g Oatmeal.

Post-workout:
2 scoop 100% Gold Standard Whey Protein
300gram Potatos

Before Bed:
200g cottage cheese.
100g Mackerel
20g Almonds

Calories: 2000 - Protein: 200 - Carbs: 120 carbs - Fat: 80


Bulking:
After im done with the cutting, and got my bodyfat down to 10, i will slowly increase calories and eat maintance for 2 week and start clean bulk for 6 months, will gain around 0.5 pounds a week.

Bulking diet:

------ Breakfast: -------
100 grams of oatmeal
6 egg whites
2 whole eggs
skim milk 400ml
omega-3
10g almonds
1 cup juice
888 calories - 58g Protein - 117g carbs - 15g fat.

-------- Lunch: --------
217g potatoes
150g chicken
omega-3
Broccoli
20g almonds
466 kcal - 44G protein - 38g carbs - 13G fat.

----Dinner/Preworkout: ----
170g tuna in water
120g banana
15g almonds
omega-3
66g oatmeal
636 calories - 61g protein - 72g carbs - 15g fat.

---- After training: ----
Whey protein shake 2 scoops
Apple.
200 kcal - 45G protein - 16g carbs - 2g fat.

— Between Meals: -------
125g salmon
217g potatoes
30g almonds
omega-3
583 calories - 28g protein - 37g carbs - 30g fat.

----- Before bed: -----
100g cottage cheese
25g almonds
250 ml milk.
100g Mackerel
253 calories - 36g Protein - 2g carbs - 34g fat.

Total: around 2450 kcal - protein 220g - 350g carbs - 90g fat.

Goals to next summer:
Start a cut tomorrow, and get my bodyfat down to 10 bf, then eat maintenace for 2 weeks, and slowly increase calories, and start a slow lean bulk to the next summer without going over 15 bodyfat with a gain at 0.5 pounds a week.

Questions:
What weight should i bulk up to to look decent?
How many calories surplus should i have to clean bulk and gain around 0.5 pounds a week?
Is 0.5 pounds a week goal to keep my fat low?
What bodyfat should i never bulk over?
Any tips so i can keep my fat gains low? i find it very easy to gain weight and fat.
Does everything look okey?

Diet looks pretty spot on. I typically go a little lower on the carbs for a cut but you are right there. I skimmed the bulk portion but theatrics look fine. Again, I am sensitive to carbs and tend to appreciate the extra fats while putting on weight. Looks good overall. Have fun.

Youre young and dont really have much muscle anyway.

I would just bulk now and get ahead.

I mean whats the point in being about 10-12 weeks behind

Get that black shit on your face taken care of, looks serious…

Why not just follow your planned diet for a few weeks, make adjustments as need be?

What weight to bulk to? Hard to say, in the past I put a # on it, then realized another 10 would look better, then another 10.

How many calories to gain? Enough so that you gain .5 lb/wk… If you’re not gaining each week simply add a little more food to one of your meals (maybe an extra serving of meat or another cup oatmeal or 2 TBSP of EVOO, depending upon where you want to get your calories from).

What body fat to never bulk over? That depends, there’s no right answer here. The leaner you stay, the better your insulin sensitivity, which will help minimize fat gain, yet the leaner you stay the slower your progress. And this could end up in you just spinning your wheels and not gaining in fear of putting on some fat. Just know that you’re not going to get fat overnight, you can adjust as needed.

If you find it easy to gain fat (which at your current weight seems odd) then perhaps include some HIIT sessions 1-3x wk depending upon how fast you’re gaining fat.

Ops, did’nt see that the picture got that big.

Thanks everyone!, sorry about the big picture :S

While you seem to have a good handle on nutrition, what does your training look like? And how would you describe your training intensity?

Because at your age, running an extended kcal deficit is a mistake: you simply aren’t carrying enough LBM to get down to 10% without a tremendous, wheel-spinning struggle.

Start training with intensity, keep eating intelligently, and watch yourself get bigger AND leaner at the same time. (true story, for healthy 16-yr olds anyway)

From that picture, and at your age, trying to “cut” seems crazy to me. You aren’t carrying much fat or muscle. Get some heavy weight on your back and in your hands and eat a pile of good food and see what happens. And if you need to, add some conditioning along the way. But I agree with the above post, focus on training intensity.

Edit: And don’t waste egg yolks, eat them, and add steak and hamburger to your diet.

You have no business discussing cutting at this point in your career.

[quote]RageBoy wrote:
Info

Im a 16 years old boy, 167 pounds with 15 bodyfat, im about to start a cut tomorrow, i will cut for around 2 months to get my bodyfat down to 10 bodyfat, so i can start a lean bulk, at the moment my body is very bloaty and saggy, so i wanna lean out so i can keep control on my fat as im bulking, i know i will look skinny, but i think i need it to feel good as im bulking, im aiming to lose 1kg a week.

Cutting diet:

Breakfast:
1 Cup Green Tea
6 Egg whites
2 Whole eggs.

Lunch:
120g tuna
Salad
Broccoli
Almonds

Dinner:
125g Salmon
Broccoli
10g almonds

Pre-Workout:
Banana
35g Oatmeal.

Post-workout:
2 scoop 100% Gold Standard Whey Protein
300gram Potatos

Before Bed:
200g cottage cheese.
100g Mackerel
20g Almonds

Calories: 2000 - Protein: 200 - Carbs: 120 carbs - Fat: 80


Bulking:
After im done with the cutting, and got my bodyfat down to 10, i will slowly increase calories and eat maintance for 2 week and start clean bulk for 6 months, will gain around 0.5 pounds a week.

Bulking diet:

------ Breakfast: -------
100 grams of oatmeal
6 egg whites
2 whole eggs
skim milk 400ml
omega-3
10g almonds
1 cup juice
888 calories - 58g Protein - 117g carbs - 15g fat.

-------- Lunch: --------
217g potatoes
150g chicken
omega-3
Broccoli
20g almonds
466 kcal - 44G protein - 38g carbs - 13G fat.

----Dinner/Preworkout: ----
170g tuna in water
120g banana
15g almonds
omega-3
66g oatmeal
636 calories - 61g protein - 72g carbs - 15g fat.

---- After training: ----
Whey protein shake 2 scoops
Apple.
200 kcal - 45G protein - 16g carbs - 2g fat.

— Between Meals: -------
125g salmon
217g potatoes
30g almonds
omega-3
583 calories - 28g protein - 37g carbs - 30g fat.

----- Before bed: -----
100g cottage cheese
25g almonds
250 ml milk.
100g Mackerel
253 calories - 36g Protein - 2g carbs - 34g fat.

Total: around 2450 kcal - protein 220g - 350g carbs - 90g fat.

Goals to next summer:
Start a cut tomorrow, and get my bodyfat down to 10 bf, then eat maintenace for 2 weeks, and slowly increase calories, and start a slow lean bulk to the next summer without going over 15 bodyfat with a gain at 0.5 pounds a week.

Questions:
What weight should i bulk up to to look decent?
How many calories surplus should i have to clean bulk and gain around 0.5 pounds a week?
Is 0.5 pounds a week goal to keep my fat low?
What bodyfat should i never bulk over?
Any tips so i can keep my fat gains low? i find it very easy to gain weight and fat.
Does everything look okey?[/quote]

Answers:

  1. We don’t know. We don’t know what you will look like at a future weight. People have different responses to diet and training. How about stick with your diet, check progress in two to four weeks, and either continue or adjust?
  2. Usually people stick with a 500 to 1,000 calorie surplus, depending on the person’s situation.
  3. Depends on what you feel comfortable with and what your future goals are. If you want to compete in bodybuilding sometime, don’t over do it with bulking or else you’ll be in for a miserable, overly lengthy contest prep. And if you just want to be lean and big and not compete, it will take a lot of work to get down if starting to fat and you might lose more muscle than desired or expected. Also keep in mind that the bigger you are generally (relatively higher bodyfat percentage) the more lean mass you can or will carry, but some will be inevatibly lost when coming down as a natural. How much muscle mass you lose is dependent on genetics and strategy.
  4. Don’t overdo it with the surplus and check results every two to four weeks. Cut down on calories when you get too fat.
  5. Your food choices are alright, but I’d include far more veggies (at almost every meal and snack). I’m too lazy and don’t have the time to check for any tweaks or to recalcuate any tweaks.

[quote]chillain wrote:
While you seem to have a good handle on nutrition, what does your training look like? And how would you describe your training intensity?

Because at your age, running an extended kcal deficit is a mistake: you simply aren’t carrying enough LBM to get down to 10% without a tremendous, wheel-spinning struggle.

Start training with intensity, keep eating intelligently, and watch yourself get bigger AND leaner at the same time. (true story, for healthy 16-yr olds anyway)
[/quote]

yeah dude, lift and eat well you’ll be alright.

honestly your bf percentage is not bad right now and if you workout/recover intellegently i bet you can gain 20-30 lbs over the next couple years and still not look sloppy or need to cut once.

You’re not fat, you have no belly basically but you can’t see your abs. I probably wouldn’t cut if I were you, but if you want abs then go for it. It’s pretty cool to see your abs, and it’s your life. Everyone is saying you shouldn’t cut, but honestly it comes down to what you want, and you already said you want to drop some fat. Theres nothing wrong with spending 5-6 weeks to lower your bodyfat if it will make you happier for the next 1-3 years as your gaining weight.

I’ve never understood why people always assume everyone is comfortable not seeing their abs for 2 years. “Just cut after 2 years of solid weight gain”. Cool. Why not drop a little fat now, then do that same 2 year period except this time, your happy the whole time because you’re at a level of leanness that makes you happy?

[quote]fisch wrote:
You’re not fat, you have no belly basically but you can’t see your abs. I probably wouldn’t cut if I were you, but if you want abs then go for it. It’s pretty cool to see your abs, and it’s your life. Everyone is saying you shouldn’t cut, but honestly it comes down to what you want, and you already said you want to drop some fat. Theres nothing wrong with spending 5-6 weeks to lower your bodyfat if it will make you happier for the next 1-3 years as your gaining weight.

I’ve never understood why people always assume everyone is comfortable not seeing their abs for 2 years. “Just cut after 2 years of solid weight gain”. Cool. Why not drop a little fat now, then do that same 2 year period except this time, your happy the whole time because you’re at a level of leanness that makes you happy?[/quote]

Things are not usually that simple.

Also, one could ask why someone would take 20 years to achieve the results they could see in 5 because they wanted “slow gains”?

Unless you have the genetics to gain tons of muscle naturally without much fat gain at all, it is a given that the end goal takes top priority. Most people in the gym will not reach an extreme level of development while maintaining single digit body fat percentages without drugs…and how “fat” you get is largely preference and strategy based on the goals.

Someone who simply wants to look like someone who trains off and on, clearly they won’t have to push as hard.

Oh, by the way, what I forgot to add in my first post: people seem to have a hard time distinguishing between “cutting” and “keeping things in check”. Making sure you have some semblance of abs, some definition in your quads, and vascularity in your arms WHILE bulking is not the same thing as cutting!

[quote]fisch wrote:
Everyone is saying you shouldn’t cut, but honestly it comes down to what you want, and you already said you want to drop some fat. Theres nothing wrong with spending 5-6 weeks to lower your bodyfat if it will make you happier for the next 1-3 years as your gaining weight. [/quote]

Actually, I never said he shouldn’t cut.

I said that he couldn’t cut. That he likely lacks the LBM (and the elevated metabolic demands that that brings) to drop down to superlean levels without starving himself for an extended period. Which, in turn, would actually hurt his overall metabolism and muscle-building efforts. In other words, Wheel Spinning 101.

I’ve never understood why people assume ‘dieting down to see abs’ is strictly about dieting. In reality, genetics and hormones are AT LEAST AS IMPORTANT, and the simple reality is that added LBM will make it easier to get leaner. [Also note: if you’re adding too much fat along with LBM, you’re doing it wrong.]

Of course, you’re right-on about individual preferences and comfort level along the way.

My 2c.

At 16, if you start a smart program, ate like you’ve described, I would imagine that the extra muscle mass would really fill you out and probably ‘take care’ off the ‘fat’ as you have such a small amount of muscle (me too) you can’t really see your abs.

Get training, and eating and I can only imagine that you’ll be kicking goals from full back in no time. Wish I found T-Nation at 16 instead of 21!!!

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]fisch wrote:
You’re not fat, you have no belly basically but you can’t see your abs. I probably wouldn’t cut if I were you, but if you want abs then go for it. It’s pretty cool to see your abs, and it’s your life. Everyone is saying you shouldn’t cut, but honestly it comes down to what you want, and you already said you want to drop some fat. Theres nothing wrong with spending 5-6 weeks to lower your bodyfat if it will make you happier for the next 1-3 years as your gaining weight.

I’ve never understood why people always assume everyone is comfortable not seeing their abs for 2 years. “Just cut after 2 years of solid weight gain”. Cool. Why not drop a little fat now, then do that same 2 year period except this time, your happy the whole time because you’re at a level of leanness that makes you happy?[/quote]

Things are not usually that simple.

Also, one could ask why someone would take 20 years to achieve the results they could see in 5 because they wanted “slow gains”?

Unless you have the genetics to gain tons of muscle naturally without much fat gain at all, it is a given that the end goal takes top priority. Most people in the gym will not reach an extreme level of development while maintaining single digit body fat percentages without drugs…and how “fat” you get is largely preference and strategy based on the goals.

Someone who simply wants to look like someone who trains off and on, clearly they won’t have to push as hard.[/quote]

I never said slow gain, I agree that approach doesn’t work well for most people who want to be bigger then average. I wouldn’t ever recommend people stay “six pack ripped” lean while trying to gain weight, as you said all that will do for 99% of people is cause them to spin there wheels and maybe possibly get big if they have good genetics. There’s nothing wrong with losing ab definition and getting “smooth” while gaining.

I only said drop 8-10 lbs first, then do the exact same thing everyone is recommending here and spend the next few years gaining weight. Leaner starting point, which seems to be what he wants.

I already said I wouldn’t lose weight if I were him, he seems to hold fat well. But he stated he wanted to be leaner, so why not do that first? 5-6 weeks isn’t that long if it keeps him happier when he starts gaining weight.

As long as the OP doesn’t get obsessed with keeping his abs while gaining, dropping a few pounds now isn’t going to kill his future progress. Actually it shouldn’t effect him getting bigger at all if he does things right.

[quote]chillain wrote:

[quote]fisch wrote:
Everyone is saying you shouldn’t cut, but honestly it comes down to what you want, and you already said you want to drop some fat. Theres nothing wrong with spending 5-6 weeks to lower your bodyfat if it will make you happier for the next 1-3 years as your gaining weight. [/quote]

Actually, I never said he shouldn’t cut.

I said that he couldn’t cut. That he likely lacks the LBM (and the elevated metabolic demands that that brings) to drop down to superlean levels without starving himself for an extended period. Which, in turn, would actually hurt his overall metabolism and muscle-building efforts. In other words, Wheel Spinning 101.

I’ve never understood why people assume ‘dieting down to see abs’ is strictly about dieting. In reality, genetics and hormones are AT LEAST AS IMPORTANT, and the simple reality is that added LBM will make it easier to get leaner. [Also note: if you’re adding too much fat along with LBM, you’re doing it wrong.]

Of course, you’re right-on about individual preferences and comfort level along the way.
[/quote]

I think our definition of cutting is different, I just use it anytime someone is trying to lose weight just because im too lazy to type out “dropping fat”. I don’t use it to describe getting super lean.

To get SOME ab definition for most people isn’t really “super lean” to be honest. As an example, im not talking about reaching the level Zraw is at in his contest prep right now (or even close to that honestly. And zraw’s still going to be getting significantly leaner), I just mean like an outline of them when you flex. But getting lean enough to see some definition doesn’t kill metabolism.

Having more muscle makes it easier to get leaner, yeah 100% agree. Genetics and hormones are much more important then diet. But he can’t change those, and neither can anyone else without drugs. That’s why I always assume “dieting down to see abs” is about dieting. That and exercise are what we have control over, so why not talk about and use them to change our physique?

Yeah gaining some muscle will make losing fat slightly easier, but it’s not like it’s that difficult to drop fat just because he’s not 220 lbs.

To actually answer you’re questions, the answer to all of them is “we don’t know”. We don’t know how you will look with 10,20, 40 lbs more muscle on you, and it shouldn’t matter at all when what weight we think you look good. If you get up to, say, 190 lbs and you’re thrilled with your physique yet some random guy on the internet thinks you need to be 20 lbs heavier, why would that matter?

Genetics play a big role how fast someone can gain muscle. Some people 0.5 lbs a week is way too slow, some it’s perfect. Try it out and see.

What bodyfat you should never bulk over? Whenever you’re truly uncomfortable with your bodyfat level. It’s your body, your life. You have to wake up every day and see yourself in the mirror. If you’re comfortable with 15% but not 16%, then don’t go over 15%.

How to keep fat low: Push yourself in the weightroom, do some other physical activity a couple times a week (can be sports with friends, bike ride, jog, stairclimber, ultimate frisbee, hiking, whatever). Take pictures/measurements every 2 weeks and see how you’re looking.

You have a good baseplan, but be ready to adapt once things get going. It’s very unlikely everything you plan will happen exactly as you hope.

EDIT: Just so I am clear about my other posts OP, I see nothing wrong with your plan of dropping a few pounds before trying to gain. But do not become fixated on keeping a full six pack while you try to gain 30+ pounds over the next couple years.

Muscle gain and fat loss are not about energy balance; they are about hormone balance.

You can accomplish both goals at the same time.