Current Bodybuilding Training Thread 2.0

I would appreciate that. Thanks for reading so far!

I thought about it some more and would like to make a few additional points:

Fat / muscle gain:

I have only taken measurements once a year or something at the start and end of a bulking / cutting phase. My arms and legs have pretty much stayed the same in the last 4 years. Chest / shoulder circumferences are kinda hard to track, so they’re almost useless in my opinion.

One thing that I noticed a few years ago though is the relationship between my bodyweight and my waist circumference. In the metric system the numbers are almost identical most of the time. So, weighing 80,1 kg I would have a 80,9 cm waist. And since bodyfat is most readily stored in the gut I figured dividing the bodyweight by the waist circumference would be a neat little way to track bodyfat at home - which is hard to do anyway. I call this my “quality factor” and it hovers between ~0.9 - 1.0 (0,975 to 1.0 most of the time).

The thing is, I figured if I would gain lean mass over the years, the quality factor should slowly rise to like 1.0+… seeing that my weight would increase, but my waist shouldn’t get much bigger than it is now. That number didn’t change at all though, it’s been hovering between 0.9 - 1.0 for four years now. Go figure.

Success with 5/3/1 / being a non-responder:

I have often thought about why I was so successful with 5/3/1 four years ago. Why I suddenly was able to build visible muscle over a few months. The answer is pretty simple though: After 1,5 years of low volume training with Starting Strength it must have been quite a shock to my body to finally get bombarded with high(er) volumes and direct isolation exercises as well. That must have unleashed some untapped potential.
It clearly shows that I’m NOT some kind of “non-responder” to training.
I just can’t understand why I haven’t been able to build any muscle at all since then…

Strength:

You know the drill, there are people who are absolutely convinced that for naturals strength and appearance are directly correlated… and then there are those who think the weight on the bar doesn’t matter.

I always figured since it seems to be hard enough for me to build muscle anyway it at least couldn’t hurt, if I got stronger. That said, my lifts have barely increased in the last year, either.

I’ve been squatting ~225 to 265 lbs for reps for 4+ years now. After my 3-day split I hit a 315 1RM with a belt and during my HFT phase I hit a 315 1RM beltless and a shaky 330.

I’ve been deadlifting 315-330 for 4+ years. Last year I hit a new 1RM of 355 during HFT.

I’ve been benching 200-225 lbs for 4+ years. 225 x 3 paused reps at my best. During HFT and while being fatter I could obviously bench a bit more. Like 225 for 10 singles.

Other exercises like dumbbell ones haven’t really increased at all.

Overall I have made the odd little rep record here and there, but much of it was temporary due to being fatter and eating more and the (very) little progress I made is nothing like what you would expect in 4 years…

Amazing how traditional bodybuilding training (volume and isolation work) actually works in terms of stimulating hypertrophy -lol. I’m not saying anything will work forever, but even Brick will tell you how much progress he made we we switched gears from what he had been doing.

S

OK, I am back and as usual I can’t give lengthy of a reply as I would like.

Before I go on, I just want to go over something. I think you might be putting too much pressure on yourself. You haven’t once stated you’re considering competing so I’m not sure if you are. So let us say after putting in all this effort, that you or someone else now considers you a so-called poor responder. Does this have any significant consequence on your life, not being able to respond to lifting as much as the next guy? Will it seriously effect your recreational or work life? I think you should appreciate what you have done and the results you’ve obtained so far rather than driving yourself nuts with something that is supposed to keep you fit (well, fit in some ways, considering hardcore bodybuilding training provides some fitness AND injury potential or muscular imbalances versus a general fitness program). I mean, if you simply don’t have what it takes physically to endure the sort of training you wish to endure, then do what you can. I seriously don’t mean to be negative, but come on, get what you CAN get out of it! I give you a lot of credit for giving the effort, planning, and recording you have done so far! It’s far more than some people have given to this hobby.

There’s a reason Mr. Berkhan doesn’t show his case failures and the guy is a huge wiseass and self-indulgent know-it-all and narcissist. Ever see Martin in pictures besides his famous three in his bathroom? That routine you showed has quite a few flaws, one of which is high injury potential considering how unbalanced it is and I don’t expect many people to look fully jacked from that program.

And let’s get something clear from what Stu says here. Many of these so-called experts who are constantly whining about what others do while stating what they do and recommend are the best never looked like bodybuilders or anything above the average gym goer. Sure they might know some useful stuff and can educate people to a degree, but I don’t think they truly know the deal considering they’ve never showed themselves fulfilling it or at least giving it their all in trying to do it. I think you might know who I am talking about.

I will try to be back and write more but it is late at night now and this week is gonna be busy. I will try my best.

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I am about half way through this thread and am feeling like I have been doing things wrong for quite some time. I am currently alternating an upper/lower split, training three times in a 7 day period (so upper/lower/upper then lower/upper/lower).

After reading through half this thread I am wondering if it would be better if I did more of a body part split…Legs/abs, chest/tris/medial delts, back/bis/rear delts. I can only get to the gym 3X a week due to family and work and would like to optimize my time and results.

Sorry if this type of question has been answered already. I understand from the first half of the thread that the consensus is that each bodypart once a week with enough volume is better than once every 5 days on the upper/lower I am currently doing…but what if the person only had time to train 3 times a week?

thanks in advance

I think the consensus in this thread is that to maximize overall body muscularity it’s probably best to follow a typical body builder type split.

If you are willing to sacrifice a liiiiitle muscle and prioritize things like mobility, athleticism, and, less rigidity of schedule you may want to use a full body/ upper lower split.

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Ha, the funny thing is that back then it DID really surprise me how well it worked. That’s how brainwashed I was by the low rep Starting Strength stuff.

What I was getting at here is that I think it wasn’t just the training style itself that led to my good gains back then, but also the fact that it was so novel for me having trained completely differently a long time before that.
And I just couldn’t figure out why I just stopped making gains in the last years. Nothing works forever, yeah, but it’s not like I didn’t try several things.

It might seem like that, but actually I’m rather the type of guy who enjoys the process and just loves lifting. It’s just that it’s kinda disheartening to find out after some years that you pretty much made no progress at all, if you’re honest to yourself.
I like progress. I like getting better. That’s part of the fun and it’s always been that way for me, with other hobbies I have/had, too, like drawing and playing the drums. Stagnating (although it’s part of the game) for a long time sucks the life out of it for me.

I have no intention to step on a bodybuilding stage and not gaining muscle doesn’t affect my recreational or work life.

It’s just that I would like to make progress again because I still love lifting and thought that you people here would maybe be able to help me out a bit. You know, bodybuilders, who are all about getting jacked… :wink: Who better to ask?

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Hi Lonnie,

Thanks for responding. When you say

I think of a 4 or a 5 day split, everything hit mostly 1X a week directly. I assume that doing a 3 day a week split where everything is hit mostly 1X a week directly would still be fine given appropriate intensity, volume and consistency and be superior over an alteranating upper/lower split?

I am not too concerned about mobility and athleticism. I do some basic mobility things here and there outside of the gym in my spare time. Enough to keep my joints from yelling at me too much at least. My main concern is optimizing results within my schedule that allow for 3 days a week.

Thanks!

Exactly!! This is the jist of it. Abs which is exactly why I am not doing a split now. I might not ever again. I’m on an upper-lower split.

You can do push-pull-legs.

I’d like to add that my body actually feels best on an upper-lower movement-based (gasp, lol) split. I loved looking like a bodybuilder but I gotta say I felt the least athletic on it. Plus splits don’t leave room for other physical activities aside from very boring cardio. Forget playing some casual sports at the park. You’ll likely be too tired and perform like Frankenstein.

OK, that is essentially what I was thinking with the Chest/tris/medial detls, back/bis/rear delt, legs.

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Why do you prefer an upper/lower as opposed to a P/P/L? How many days a week do you do currently train? Do you feel like you would have gained as much muscle on your upper/lower vs. body part vs. PPL…or does it not matter as much in the end given time, effort and consistency?

Thanks

I believe the best way to gain as much muscle as possible is by… specializing in building as much as possible. And that is with a body part split, what is preferred by bodybuilders for that reason. Every body part matters in a bodybuilding competition, more than some people realize. When two guys are nearly the same size and conditioning, other areas overlooked by the common person can be a deciding factor, such as hamstrings, rear delts, lower lats and the detail in the upper back, all of which I believe cannot be developed to their potential with an upper-lower split or full bod program because those programs do not allow for the sort of necessary work to be done.

One can develop a very good body, as I believe I did with an upper-lower split, but I could have been farther along for a BB show (the only one I did, but won) had I done a body part split. I think I looked alright, but if I wanted to live up to the BB standard I would have wanted to had I continued, I would have had to bring my back, rear, delts and even my arms, which I believe are one of my better parts.

If you LIKE body part splits, then go ahead and do one. But for someone who just wants to be lean and muscular for everyday life, an upper-lower split can work fine. Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1 is an upper-lower split (well, the original plan and some variations of it) and people have built very good bodies with that program. But if one is born flat chested, I don’t think they’re going to have bulbous pecs from low-volume flat benching with some dumbbell presses and dips thrown on once or twice per week.

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Excellent response, thank you very much.

I have done many types of training in the past and have had the most remarks about my appearance during a 5 day split, but due to factors have had to move away from that in the last few years. I will move onto a 3 day P/P/L and see how that goes.

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Another question…

How do people feel about alternating short periods of caloric surplus with caloric deficts? Not a full blown bulk and cut…but 12 week surplus then 4 week deficit, rinse and repeat?

I try to be sensible and eat for performance, but after about 12 weeks I am thinking about a hard 3 week drop in calories before transitioning to maintenance for a week and then back into a slight surplus. I tend to gain fat easily and muscle slowly - although now am thinking lack of volume has been the problem with that.

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If that helps you minimize potential “damage”, then by all means. A few years back some people were pushing a potential 2 weeks surplus / 2 weeks deficit premise, but it didn’t seem to pan out well for anyone.

S

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Great, thanks Stu

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I just finished reading through this entire thread and I just wanted to thank everyone, especially Stu, Brick, Rob, Lonnie, and others, for bringing some clarity back to my training.

Without going too much into my history, I started seriously lifting weights about 20 years ago (actually started years earlier, but just messing around with those old cement filled weights and bodyweight stuff). I truly feel I was lucky that back then the internet wasn’t nearly what it is today. All I had to go on was stuff I read in magazines, Schwarzenegger’s Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding, and what I figured out myself. I also had no concept of what a “natural” bodybuilder was supposed to look like, as far as size, and aimed towards the old bodybuilders of the 60’s and 70’s. I have some of my old training journals from back then and, surprise, its all splits.

Without all of the information and on line experts available today and just eating and training with splits, I went from 175 lbs - 235 lbs in about 4 years. Fast forward a couple more years and I found training advice on the internet and abandoned the split set up. The past couple of years, I focused on strength, unsuccessfully. Interestingly, I am maybe only slightly bigger and not much, if any, stronger than back when I was doing splits. While any improvement is good, it’s not nearly what I would expect from years of work.

After getting tired of sore knees and shoulders, and a constantly tight back, a couple months ago I decided to return to what first got me to pick up a weight and what I fell in love doing, and that’s building muscle. Based on stuff I read, I knew that, being natural, I “had” to do either full body workouts or high frequency/low volume workouts. While I have no doubt they will work, but I have struggled reconciling this with how I started out training, what has worked in the past, and what I enjoyed.

After reading this thread, I’m back on a split and looking forward to seeing what I can do with it.

Now a couple questions for everyone:

  1. What do you see as the benefit/downside to the internet now. I mentioned above why I am glad it wasn’t really a factor in my early training, but a definite upside to what is available now is things like this forum. When I was 22, I had planned on doing a show, hired a coach for my diet, and cut for about 9 weeks. I was down to 200 lbs, from 235 lbs, when I pulled out. Knowing what I know now, as a natural competitor, I would have been respectable, but all of the bodybuilders I knew were assisted and much larger. I had no comparable frame of reference and felt I would be way too small and would just end up being embarrassed.

  2. What do you see has muscle building potential in trained lifters into their late 30’s, early 40’s? It seems most studies I see that show guys can build muscle in later years are done with an untrained population. If you have been training for years, at what point do you accept that for muscle size, you are now in maintenance?

Thanks!

Ben

Thank you!

That’s exactly when the internet became popular and the smart alecks came on the scene.

Yeah, I had the same misconception at the time I thought people like SM, SL, JW, KM, MO, BD, and others in the Team Universe and Musclemania were all natural because they weren’t "so big, at least not in my eyes compared to some IFBB pros of the time.

Hence why you should’ve competed in a natural federation, such as WNBF, ANBF, IFPA, OCB, or some other. How tall are you and at what weight did you plan on competing? No one at average height is in stage shape at 200 but you said you had more time to go.

Bodybuilding is not all about size. I could’ve done the Brooklyn NPC show, two weeks before my show, and from the photos of competitors, by my best subjectivity, I could’ve placed in the top three, with a natural show two weeks after that.

None–so long as the person has been training in the bodybuilding style properly for years. The reason I brought up weak points at 37 years old was because despite training before that for years, there were stretches in which I did not train properly for bodybuilding aims or was not training at all. I could’ve made some more improvements, I believe, but I am simply interested in general fitness and health now. I do a basic upper-lower split now.

The biggest downside of the internet is the current crop of smart alecks who’ve never competed or looked like a bodybuilder who are stating some supposed ideal way to train while stating the way everyone who’s done bodybuilding the way it’s supposed to be done are doing it inadequately. These same smart alecks shuffle studies to and fro, nearly all of which are absolutely worthless to us. Seriously, what can these people constantly talk about that is of use to us. Eating and assigning macros and portion sizes is not rocket science! There’s one smart aleck-know-it-all who has literally developed a brand for himself shuffling around studies and information to and fro and starting arguments on the internet about eating, above all things to seriously argue about in this world! Then there’s another sociopath who I believe stays well within the confines of his home while e-confronting and ridiculing everyone that comes to his mind, even his former e-friends, because he likely would be sent to the nearest emergency room if he was so constantly confrontational elsewhere to other men. He is the poster boy for shut-in-DYEL’s everywhere. I am usually not this crude, but that’s how I see the internet now.

I do not state my credentials to brag (RD with undergrad and MS degrees in nutrition). I actually state them to show that my credentials have practically very little to do with writing diets and eating appropriately for bodybuilding! That says something. One needs only the most basic nutrition knowledge to get ready for a show. The rest is just good decision making. Seriously, how hard can be it to jot down appropriate macros and food portions for a given goal?! Or do we need to hear bullshit broscience about one food having some magical or negative effect of one food over another or that grains and dairy aren’t suitable food choices for bodybuilders because of (non-existent) allergies or inflammatory responses or because we didn’t eat them more than 10,000 years ago, which is likely BS considering every domesticated grain we eat today has a wild ancestor and it didn’t take anything to stop some ancient man from taking stones and grinding them down for cooking and consumption! It’s all very interesting considering caveman didn’t consume steroids either, nor did he use powdered and pilled supplements!

I think full-body upper-lower splits have their place, but splits produce the best results for bodybuilding, I believe.

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