Current Bodybuilding Training Thread 2.0

Bigger Stronger Leaner
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Another great article by Clay Hyght. I REALLY like his stuff: How Bodybuilders Should Eat - T Nation Content - COMMUNITY - T NATION. He talks about protein, fat and carbs, timing, high/medium/low days and even gives sample templates for each day, here’s the medium day example:

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Some scattered thoughts on carb cycling as we could easily write a novel here (which I usually do anyway lol). Carb cycling is an efficient way to keep fat at bay while bulking, or to keep metabolism running best as possible while cutting. Low days are typically “off” days, or cardio days, when you don’t need a ton of carbs to get through the day. Medium days are average training days, and the high day(s) are typically for bigger muscle groups like legs/back, OR some folks put high days on the days they work the weak points they want to bring up.

Some folks also like to do the same nutrition every day, so when they make an adjustment, it’s the same adjustment for each day. Personally I like carb cycling on a diet, because it maintains a high day(s), vs if you do the same thing each day. If you have the same nutrition each day, when it gets really low cals/carbs, EVERY day is going to be extremely tough, vs carb cycling which certainly has those very tough days, but it gives you more wiggle room to control high and medium days to suit your needs. Towards the end of a prep, those high days (or refeed days) are absolutely essential to remind your body it’s not going to die, and they help keep the fat burning/metabolism going.

In the off season, personally I’m not doing as much carb cycling, I have training day nutrition, and off day nutrition. Off day nutrition is less calories than training day, and carbs stop after meal 2 as referenced in the Clay Hyght article above. Meals 3-6 are P+F meals.

On nutrient timing:

We usually hear that getting the overall macros for the day is priority numero uno, and it certainly is, BUT, for those who can achieve that (how hard is it really?) I think nutrient timing is the next level. How many pros do you hear saying nutrient timing doesn’t matter? None.

The overall theme with nutrient timing is somewhat “eat for what you’re about to do” in terms of carbs and fats. Protein intake should be evenly spread throughout the day, divided up evenly between your meals. I get 180g protein per day, between 6 meals, so each meal has 30g protein.

Carbs and fats in terms of numbers are more individualized and found through trial and error, as well carb sources (higher/lower GI). Some folks can get lean on lots of carbs, some need minimal carbs, some have to resort to Keto to get ready for the stage. One quick example, a client of mine used to be diabetic, isn’t anymore, but is very insulin sensitive as confirmed by tests from his doctor. Additionally, his entire family pretty much is diabetic, so his genes aren’t helping him. His weight loss plateaud for a while, until we adjusted his carb sources. We didn’t even adjust his carb numbers, just his carb sources to all high fiber/low GI, and the weight loss kicked in again.

Typically, high carb AND high fat meals should be avoided (i.e. pizza or something) as the potential for storing fat is much higher. If you have a meal higher in carbs, fats should be minimal. If a meal is a P+F meal, carbs should come from veggies, or be relatively minimal, like a piece of fruit or something.

Higher GI carbs (sugars, rice, bagels, PLAZMA) are best around the workout window as they spike insulin the most and have the greatest potential for fat storage if they’re not utilized. When you train, the insulin spike is optimal, which is why Plazma or higher GI carb source is best. Some folks who might have super speedy metabolism (jerks) have more wiggle room with carb sources. Generally, lower GI carb sources are recommended for other times of the day, like oats, brown rice, fruit, ezekiel products, etc. The GI of a carb source does lower considerably when you factor in the protein and/or you’re eating with the meal which slows digestion, but I think for those who are not blessed with raging metabolism and are trying to keep fat at bay or are in a diet/prep, timing and carb source management are essential.

These carb cycling and nutrient timing guidelines, similar to bodybuilding training guidelines, are the “basics” and what works best for an individual may be slightly different, and the only way to know that is through trial and error, and truthfully, a contest prep. I learned a metric ton of information about my body and how I respond best to various macro breakdowns and nutrient timing, carb sources, etc. My off season has been extremely productive because of it, and I know my next prep will be too.

Might be a good excuse to hop on board @Yogi1’s idea for a contest style prep! Who Wants To Have A Friendly Comp Next Year? - #58 by Lonnie123

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Thanks, man. This was fantastic to wake up to and read while eating breakfast. I lot of it I knew already, but some I didn’t. I’m sure I’ll find more throughout the day as I read the article while at the office (shh…don’t tell my boss).

One question I have is concerning those of us who use Plazma (or a similar intra-carb). I count it in my macros…but it’s never listed that way in an sample/template I’ve found. Do y’all count it in your macros too? (If this is in the article, I’ll find it at some point today).

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Yes, Plazma should be counted in the macros for sure and factored in to your pre workout carbs. So for example, if you want to take in 80g carbs pre-workout, you wouldn’t have a Finibar, then two scoops Plazma with your session (that would total 120g carbs.) You’d want to have one Finibar and one scoop of Plazma, totaling 80g carbs. Plazma really can’t be beat to fuel a workout. In the off season I’ll have 80g carbs for training, as a Finibar pre-workout, and a scoop of Plazma during training. I really love Finibars and eating something solid before I train. During prep season I didn’t use Plazma, because it is counted in the macros, and when calories are low, I’d rather have a bowl of oatmeal and whey or a Finibar, rather than a drink. But man after the prep was over it felt SO GOOD to add Plazma back in again!

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What are some of your thoughts on CTs recent articles indicating higher frequency is better for natural vs the traditional bodybuilding split of training each muscle once per week?

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CT has advocated for both full-body/high frequency and split routines. So…with him advocaating for higher frequency lately, I think @The_Mighty_Stu summed it up nicely when he said:

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Unadvisable, because of the very same problems and reasons he himself in the past said these types of routines would cause for physique development. And we are talking strictly development for bodybuilding and physique class here.

@The_Mighty_Stu

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Agreed with @The_Mighty_Stu and @BrickHead on their replies. Additionally, it’s important to make the distinction that for bodybuilding training specifically, you just can’t beat splits. Natty or not. I don’t know why some folks think splits aren’t good for naturals. I do agree that naturals might not be able to handle the volume that some assisted lifters can, if you look at Jay Cutler’s workouts, I don’t think a natural would be able to maintain that kind of volume long term, or that it would be beneficial even if they could. On the high frequency aspect, I do agree that if you’re trying to bring up a weak point, frequency is a great way to do that. For example I’m currently hitting back and arms twice a week, so I adjust the volume in each session accordingly. I’m not going to structure those workouts as if I was hitting them once a week.

Another aspect to think about, which has been touched upon here, in a well structured split routine, pretty much every muscle is being hit multiple times, though not directly. On your chest day, shoulders and triceps certainly do quite a bit of work, similar to the biceps on back day. Additionally, depending on the lifter’s strengths, hitting once a week might be all that’s needed for certain muscle groups.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the article and training program posted by CT, obviously he knows his stuff and is extremely credible and has experience in bodybuilding, powerlifting, crossfit and pretty much everything! But the article was focused on providing a training template for natties and is not specifically geared towards bodybuilding. Keeping in mind the topic of this thread specifically, natty or not, IMO splits (with some modifications for frequency if needed for weak points) are ideal.

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For my part, even if the program was effective, you would be spending far more time warming up the muscles than actually training them. Once you got to the point where you had some strength you would have to warm up a lot just to avoid getting strains, and that would naturally extend the workouts beyond the short duration he recommends, since they hit so many muscles in the many different workouts.

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As CT has been mentioned numerous times, let’s examine his absolutely awesome Indigo workouts: Indigo Project Training Programs

These progression programs are fantastic. The hypertrophy program was my first ever program in the gym on day 1. So for hypertrophy, we’re obviously talking about building as much mass as possible. What does the program look like? SPLITS!

MON - Chest
TUES - Legs
WED - Lats and Arms
THUR - Shoulders
FRI - Back

Each day starts with 3 big lifts (except Wednesday) - military press, squat and deadlift, at varying percentages of your 1RM, not going to failure. Then, each day has its main work exercise, followed by some supersets/burners at the end. While every day starts with the 3 big lifts (except for lats/arms day), the 5 days hit each body part as structured in a typical split routine. A beautiful combination of split style training with the high frequency aspect of starting with the big 3 each day.

These workouts are awesome and I highly recommend them. While this program is hypertrophy focused, make no mistake, you will see a very significant increase in strength if you follow the numbers. They do take quite a long time to complete, especially the third week of each cycle. Well worth it!

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Let’s say one is doing 4 exercises for a particular body part, and 3-4 sets per exercise. That’s 12-16 sets. How would those sets look from an RPE perspective? Are they all highly intense, say 8-10? Do they gradually increase? For example, after a couple of warm up sets, my first set is 100x10 at an RPE of 9. 2nd set is 100x10 at RPE of 10. 3rd set 90x10 at RPE of 10. 4th set 80x10 at RPE 9.

Just curious as to other people’s thoughts, methods, and ideas as I’m always trying to learn.

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The general consensus in this thread was that the articles by Clay Hyght provided a good road map.
(as linked to in this post)

Check them out, but the general idea is that the while all the work sets should be “hard” (lets call it RPE 8 I suppose. 1-2 reps left in the tank) only the last set should be taken to failure of each exercise.

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Thank you Lonnie. I’ll revisit those articles.

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People should really check out the writings of Tom Venuto as well, which are very similar to Clay’s.

Gee… is it any wonder that bodybuilding writers… who compete as bodybuilders… and train bodybuilders… all have their bodybuilding clients train with splits?
@The_Mighty_Stu

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Re-reading Clay’s article “Tried and True…”, I noticed in his 5-day split he paired chest with calves and delts with hams. I like this idea because, tbh, I don’t really enjoy a “leg day” as much as a shoulder, chest, or back day. He gives quads their own day with abs. In keeping a “no leg day” split, I would like to pair quads with delts as delts are a smallish group compared with back or chest; and pair chest with hams. Add in bis with back and calves and tris with chest and hams.

What are your thoughts on splitting it up this way?
Also Brick, I did a Tom Venuto search and came across a thread where you and jksrbac mentioned briefly a 3-day split on a 4 day rotation. And the benefits being that hitting a muscle once every 7 days wasn’t enough frequency, but twice was too much. Curious as to whether or not you still maintain this idea. Thank you for the feedback and insight.

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One thing I noticed that gets written about, is this argument that you have to take in so much protein with carbs so that your protein does not get sacrificed and can be used to build muscle. Perhaps I am miscommunicating that statement, but whenever I hear something like that the thought in my head goes: Cannot the body break down the nutrients then use the aminos to build muscle? Is not the process of breaking down the nutrients what creates the energy (basic chemistry) and then the aminos re-allocated to fit human requirements?

Am I wrong or is the other argument right?

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I think you’re a little confused.

Think of producing muscle like a factory, carbs are the electricty that powers the factory. Amino Acids are the machines in the factory producing the products (muscle tissue).

Without adequate electricity, the machines can’t work to produce the products.

In the same manner, if you do not meet your minimum energy requirements (which is usually met by eating carbs, unless you’re keto), your body cannot dedictate aminos to protein synthesis, instead they will be oxidized for energy. Generally, if you are on a lower carb diet, your glycogen levels are also very low, so you can’t lift as much to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

Muscle synthesis is incredibly expensive for your body, so if you don’t meet your minimum energy requirements, (which again, is usually met via carbs), your body will let free aminos hang out in the liver until they are diverted to something, or urinated out :slightly_frowning_face:

This isn’t to say you have to eat carbs and protein in the same meal to prevent this from happening, but that your protein amount taken in must be greater than protein losses (nitrogen balance in the scientific world) and your overall energy intake for the day must be adequate.

Your nitrogen balance is pushed towards the negative by everything you do: cardio, walking up and down the stairs, sex, just existing. We eat large amounts of protein when cutting to put our bodies (hopefully) in a positive nitrogen balance while maintaining a caloric deficit to (hopefully) lose fat. In this case, protein can be utilized for energy and muscle synthesis. That is why you can see guys like brick improve body parts while cutting, but this is a difficult balance to strike.

Eat too much and your body becomes very efficient at using protein for energy, to the point where it can prefer it. Eat too little, and you lose muscle.

Muscle synthesis is also heavily influenced by the amount of lifting you do as well, but remember that lifting breaks down muscle, thus initially tipping you towards a negative nitrogen balance.

I hope this clears it up some.

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Enjoyed the read that Rob posted from Clay Hyght, also doing the carb cycling thing, I have found that I feel better with carbs later in the day, (Train at 12) so normally on a medium day would start the day with protein and fats, then have pre post carbs, I always seem to be more hungry later in the day, so my last meal is always has some carbs.

What are your thoughts on the article the day from Paul Carter? The Simple Carb Cycling Diet. Does anyone do pre training protein and fats and then have two meals carbs and protein?.

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After my first contest prep, and finally looking like a full-blown bodybuilder, and wanting to make improvements in the future, I am convinced that once every six days per body part is my sweet spot and I can probably handle once every five days with the split I will be using for quite some time. I don’t think once every seven days is bad either with a split that allows plenty of overlap, and nearly all rational ones do.

Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle by Tom Venuto is one of the best bodybuilding books ever written. I’ll actually unequivocally say that if one picked up that book and applied the information provided for three years, he will look like a full-blown bodybuilder. If I recall correctly, the same goes for Chris Aceto’s Championship Bodybuilding.

Oh boy, if I followed such advice all along the way, and not been fooled by dimwits who are not even bodybuilders yet tell others how to train like bodybuilders with talk of “frequency, frequency, frequency” and “protein synthesis, protein synthesis, protein synthesis” and that if you just train your muscles with compound lifts with a direct frequency of two to three times per week, that you will get jacked so much faster than the next guy who uses splits.

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I am not Rob, but the article you mentioned is very good, thought it is not the only way to do things. That’s one strategy, a good one, but not the only way to do carb rotation. What ultimately is good is that the system one uses is not silly (yes, a vague way to put it, but you get the gist, I’m sure) and consistent and sustainable.

On some of my days during prep, I actually had the reverse: more carbs before workouts and less after.

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First off congrats on your achievement, you cleary put in the effort and looked a class above from the pics

,I’m not really sure about some comments in your post though and without wanting to startup a stupid argument like in the other threads, I kinda look at it differently. So some questions…

Could your current success with splits be down to the fact that you had those years of getting stronger and concentrating on compounds and weight progression?

Is it inconceivable that many of the successful bodybuilders also started in this manner and then made the switch to a more bodybuilder routine? The argument that all successful bodybuilder train this way is kinda obsolete when many would have spent large periods of there earlier careers doing plenty of different stuff.

Without a time machine it’s impossible to know if you would be in a better position training your current way right from the start, or if those early years getting stronger were the key

I’ve read many places the key is heavy weights for higher reps for a long time under tension. Is this achievable without actually getting strong first? I’m not convinced a skinny weak youngster starting out can make this work, it’s possible for them to work on getting stronger first, then following this principle.

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