T Nation

Crossfitter Looking for Advice

Hi, I’m 27yrs old, currently following a crossfit program with emphasis on Oly lifting. (The local crossfit gym is the only one in a fifty mile radius that allows you to go overhead). I’m 5’10, 85kg. DL 185kg, back squat 140kg. I’d like bigger lifts, as well as faster times on the cardio portions. I have done some research on this subject but am still quite unsure as to the best first-time course.

The shared wisdom on these pages seems to be that for a first-timer, a basic 400mg/w test only course is the way to go. However a friend of mine is strongly pushing test and deca in equal amounts.

My question is, what, if any, are the benefits of adding deca, and what would you say the best course is for the type of training I’m currently doing (i.e. cardio and weights in fairly equal measures).

You should not need Deca at higher than 300mg for your first time, esp considering your weight.

Test should be higher than deca.

And using deca your first time is a mistake.

Your recovery from your first cycle is always harder, simply because its the first time.

Deca is a bitch to recover from and is best saved for later.

Deca isnt much for strength gains anyways, test and dbol are better suited for your goals.

[quote]Westclock wrote:
Test should be higher than deca.[/quote]

Why? Because it is the DHT that causes the ED? Are you sure?

When? Wednesday? It can be used in early cycles as i have done so successfully, but it is important that the user knows by which method deca causes problems (i didnt at the time of my early deca cycles FYI - and found the earlier cycles easier to recover from than later ones) - alone it may be a lack of DHT mainly, but with any appreciable amount of test/proviron/mast(DHT) (not necessarily higher or equal) the DHT is there, yet many still have ED issues. Prolactin is the cause of this. I believe that a dopamine agonist is necessary for deca runs. Not Tren runs IME however.[quote]

Deca isnt much for strength gains anyways, test and dbol are better suited for your goals.[/quote]

I agree that Nandrolone is shite for strength, but i dont get strength gains easily - i know for size it will be a great addition to test and dbol.

For a first cycle a single AAS cycle is important IMO. I liked to try a new drug either alone or with a test ester, source and dose i know what is doing what.

I disagree with your post but i know i am in a large minority here in the views of deca and its sides or the cause of the sides, and the co-current use of test to “cure” the sides.

Nothing personal! Westclock :wink:

Brook

I’d like to add - Deca is not a good product for the OP however! :wink:

Brook

[quote] Brook wrote:
Westclock wrote:
Test should be higher than deca.

Why? Because it is the DHT that causes the ED? Are you sure?

And using deca your first time is a mistake.
Your recovery from your first cycle is always harder, simply because its the first time.

This is simply not true - it may be true for you but IME it is the total opposite, the more cycles i did of whatever compound, i found recovery to be more difficult.

The first cycle is the EASIEST to recover from IMO.

Deca is a bitch to recover from and is best saved for later.

When? Wednesday? It can be used in early cycles as i have done so successfully, but it is important that the user knows by which method deca causes problems (i didnt at the time of my early deca cycles FYI - and found the earlier cycles easier to recover from than later ones) - alone it may be a lack of DHT mainly, but with any appreciable amount of test/proviron/mast(DHT) (not necessarily higher or equal) the DHT is there, yet many still have ED issues. Prolactin is the cause of this. I believe that a dopamine agonist is necessary for deca runs. Not Tren runs IME however.

Deca isnt much for strength gains anyways, test and dbol are better suited for your goals.

I agree that Nandrolone is shite for strength, but i dont get strength gains easily - i know for size it will be a great addition to test and dbol.

For a first cycle a single AAS cycle is important IMO. I liked to try a new drug either alone or with a test ester, source and dose i know what is doing what.

I disagree with your post but i know i am in a large minority here in the views of deca and its sides or the cause of the sides, and the co-current use of test to “cure” the sides.

Nothing personal! Westclock :wink:

Brook[/quote]

You may simply respond well to deca. You are lucky I suppose, I don’t take it personal at all.

I certainly enjoy deca, but it doesn’t seem to agree with me in terms of recovery. I use it when I bulk, even though its harder to recover from, the gains outweigh the losses in recovery.

The only reason to run the test higher than deca is because test is more effective for strength, recovery, energy, etc, and is usually cheaper.

Certainly if it were feasible you would run them both high for the best gains, although that would be an excessive androgen intake.

Running test at all should negate the sides, it doesn’t specifically have to be higher.

I simply feel test is stronger and superior to deca in most ways.

Deca does however act in ways test does not and stacking them certainly adds considerable benefit to a test cycle.

The key word is test cycle, it should be the main androgen used, as deca is “weaker” in most respects of the overall cycle.

Certainly a higher dose of deca, like 600mg/week with say 300mg/week of test would work well enough, but it would not be my choice.

The reason most people run test high and deca at a moderate dose is because test is “easier” to use and like I said more effective in many respects.

With deca you need to drop it a few weeks before the end of the cycle. And caber is more difficult to acquire and expensive than many AIs.

Its not that deca CANT be used in the first cycle, its that you will not notice dramatic differences in your gains.

The first cycles youll get 15-20 pounds off just a moderate dose of test.

Your body can only synthesis so much muscle no matter how many androgens are flowing through it.

Adding deca will not significantly increase the first cycle gains.

But the new user will have to deal with more injections, another ancillary drug, the need to drop the deca before the cycle ceases, and, at least in my opinion, a harsher recovery.

You want the first cycle to be simple, giving the user less to screw up with is the key to them not fucking up; on the average.

I feel that deca has diminishing returns until the standard test cycle just isn’t cutting it for you anymore, which is usually atleast 1-2 cycles in.

But its simply an opinion.

Guys, thanks for the help. To be honest, I’d feel more comfortable just running test the first time. As Westclock said, less chance of me fucking up!
With test though, am I right in saying I don’t have to take anti-e’s throughout the course- just have them on hand in case I start to feel side effects coming on?

And finally, I’m looking at a 12week course, 400mg/wk. This seem about right to everybody?
Thanks again for all the input.

I just suggested the following cycle on another thread. It would also apply here. Shorter, higher dosed cycles tend to give more bang for your buck and are much easier to recover from.:

W1-8: Test E 250mg E3D =583mg/w
(Frontload Day 1 only at 670mg)

Adex: 0.25mg/d (adjust up or down according to how you respond => higher dose if you feel elevated E2 sides (bloating, nipple sensitivity, emotional, poor libido) => lower doese if you feel too low E2 sides (achy joints, poor libido, mental fogginess, grumpy morale. Keep dose the same if libido is good, morale is good, mind is sharp)

dbol: Good to add in in weeks 7-10 IMO at 10mg 3x/d. This will allow you to experience and note first the effects of test e alone on your body, then you add a whole second wave of gains toward the end of your cycle. The added beauty of this is that it keeps you maxing out gains during weeks 9-10 when you are waiting for the enanthate serum level to drop adequately to start your SERM PCT. Note that during the period when you are using two heavily aromatizing compounds (test & dbol), you should increase Adex to around 0.5mg/d and adjust once more according to how you feel. Everyone responds differently. I am using 0.5mg/d Adex with no dbol right now (700mg/w test e). To find my perfect dose, I usually continue to slowly raise the dose until I feel achy joints, then I lower it a bit.

W11-14: SERM PCT Nolva. W1: 40mg/d, W2: 40mg/d, W3: 20mg/d, W4 20mg/d.

W5-8: HCG at 250 IU EOD => Optional but will definitely improve recovery.

[quote]boatsailinhoor wrote:
Guys, thanks for the help. To be honest, I’d feel more comfortable just running test the first time. As Westclock said, less chance of me fucking up!
With test though, am I right in saying I don’t have to take anti-e’s throughout the course- just have them on hand in case I start to feel side effects coming on?

And finally, I’m looking at a 12week course, 400mg/wk. This seem about right to everybody?
Thanks again for all the input.[/quote]

No you will still need an Anti E.
But they are cheap and easily available as research chems.

Thanks everybody, especially Westclock. I hope to be starting in two or three weeks, so will post back to let ye know how I get on.