Critque My Strength Routine

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
What has this world come to… that is, what has the lifting community come to?

The guy wants to get strong, he wants to get big. People are already tearing him apart, just because he mentioned the word strength. Are we all not for the endeavor of getting both bigger AND stronger? So his routine isn’t ‘pure bodybuilding’, but I don’t see this guy doing a powerlifting routine or competing in a powerlifting meet, thus, he shouldn’t post in the powerlifting sub-forum, he should post here… here in the Bodybuilding forum where folks are trying to get BIGGER and STRONGER.

People show no support these days and are quick to shoot people down. The old-timers of the 50s, 60s, and 70s would be disgusted with the lack of camaraderie. [/quote]

Dude isnt even training his arms.

That routine is nothing close to something a bodybuilder would follow. And obviously the OP has no intention of looking like a bodybuilder.

And I hope that last line is a joke, unless you are 75 years old.

[/quote]
Yeah he’s not training arms, but at least he’s doing some dips and chins which can build some pretty decent arms. I’m not saying his routine is optimal, but he’s already on the right path focusing on the big movements, dips, chins, squats, etc.

And I said myself the routine isn’t anything a bodybuilder would follow, but why does the bodybuilding forum have to be just ‘pure bodybuilding?’ How many people are actually competing here? Why can’t it be for people who want to get bigger AND stronger? Why can’t people have a strength-oriented routine, with ‘getting bigger’ as a plus? Why, when someone mentions the word ‘strength’, people release the hounds in that person? Like I said, we are all in the endeavor of getting bigger and stronger, so we should only see constructive criticism in this thread. The guy isn’t competing in powerlifting or lifting like a powerlifter, so I don’t see why he can’t post in this sub-forum.

And the last line isn’t a joke, I don’t see why you think it is. I’ve read a lot of books from the big names of the 50s/60s/70s, and the tone they bring out in their writings about the sense of unity between lifters would dismiss this garbage. Are you not part of the Brotherhood of Iron?[/quote]

No one in the brother hood of iron is lifting 3 days a week. Thats considered active recovery.

If someones routine doesnt even hit all the muscle groups

I realize youre just saying this stuff just for the sake of it. And probably trolling by saying that people have built pretty decent arms with chins and dips. Bullshit. Fuck, this is a retarded discussion. And also trolling by implying that people who actually take bodybuilding seriously arent getting stronger.

Its nice that you read books about ‘big names’. I dont see any ‘big names’ conversing here. Do you think every single person felt the same way because they lived within the same 3 decade span?

Can you answer this honetly please. If you frequented the powerlifting or O-lifting forum and someone came in and posted a thread titled “Critique my hypertrophy routine” and then outlined Jay Cutlers exact split comprised of 2 hour sessions chock full of HS machine work and FST7 training, what do you think would happen?
[/quote]
He’s lifting 4 days a week, and plenty big guys have done that, and he’s even got 5/3/1 mixed in there. CC had a bodybuilder-style routine for 5/3/1.

And yeah I think people can get some decent arms by weighted chins and weighted dips if they do them often enough. Obviously it is not optimal and I recommend that the OP add in 1 exercise for biceps/triceps a week (i.e. 5x10 ez-bar preacher curls and 5x20 band pushdowns). But there is no need to tear him down because he doesn’t have direct arm work.

I will answer your question honestly. The OP in that scenario would get ripped apart, as he should. But that is not the scenario here. The OP here wants to get bigger and stronger, simple as that, and his routine isn’t that far off from a bodybuilder routine, with some minor tweaks. But that is besides the point. In a powerlifting forum, most of those people are competing or intend to. In an O-lifting forum, most of those people are competing or intend to. In this bodybuilding forum, how many people are competing? Most aren’t and most want to simply get bigger and stronger, so the OP is right where he should be.

And where did I say bodybuilders aren’t getting stronger? The two are connected obviously, but if one wants to have a strength-focused routine while getting bigger as well, what’s the problem? That it should automatically be put in the powerlifting forum?

[quote]godsrealson wrote:
ok the guy made a mistake and this thread probably doesnt belong here, but you didnt have to say it the way you did[/quote]

OP posted what looked like 5/3/1 with assistance work and asked to “build strength” (vague because it doesn’t feature current lifts and future goals) and “add size” (vague again because no current weight, BF% and target composition). As for “say it the way you did” - c’mon dude it’s the internet, you can speak anyway you want and responses will follow accordingly.

I have almost the same routine except I never start with rowing before pushing and I always start with 531 if I am doing it
Also that would be too much volume for me. You have to find if the volume and frequency is right for you. I think a big part of setting up a split is a matter of taste, you do what kind of split you would like to do and that’s why no one is giving explicit rexommendation

Nevermind, there’s the OP, he should get an avatar.

First off, that is a lot of volume. Are you accumulated to this? If not I would tone it down a bit and use less exercises. I’m not sure if you’ve done 5/3/1 before, but when you rep out on that last set, especially on deadlift day, there’s only so much you can do. Second, are you only able to work out 4 days, why not 5 or 6 or 7? If 4 days fits you, then upper/lower may be the way to go. But I would go look at Cephalic_Carnage’s “How Do You Train” thread and read that front to back. It is a goldmine, especially with altering 5/3/1.

Lower Body
Deadlift 5/3/1
Leg Press 4x15
Leg Extension 4x12
Leg Curls/GHR 4x12-15
Abs

Upper Body
Bench Press 5/3/1
Weighted Dips 4x10
DB Row 4x12-15
Wide Grip Pulldown 4x10
Band Pushdowns 5x20

Lower Body
Hang clean 5/3/1
Back Squat 5/3/1
Front Squat 4x8
Romanian Deadlifts 3x8-12
Abs

Upper Body
Military Press 5/3/1
DB Decline Press 4x10
Chins 4x10
Cable Rows 4x10
Preacher curls 4x10

also check this thread: http://velocity.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/531_hor_hypertrophy

and this for template: Blood and Chalk 1

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
What has this world come to… that is, what has the lifting community come to?

The guy wants to get strong, he wants to get big. People are already tearing him apart, just because he mentioned the word strength. Are we all not for the endeavor of getting both bigger AND stronger? So his routine isn’t ‘pure bodybuilding’, but I don’t see this guy doing a powerlifting routine or competing in a powerlifting meet, thus, he shouldn’t post in the powerlifting sub-forum, he should post here… here in the Bodybuilding forum where folks are trying to get BIGGER and STRONGER.

People show no support these days and are quick to shoot people down. The old-timers of the 50s, 60s, and 70s would be disgusted with the lack of camaraderie. [/quote]

Dude isnt even training his arms.

That routine is nothing close to something a bodybuilder would follow. And obviously the OP has no intention of looking like a bodybuilder.

And I hope that last line is a joke, unless you are 75 years old.

[/quote]
Yeah he’s not training arms, but at least he’s doing some dips and chins which can build some pretty decent arms. I’m not saying his routine is optimal, but he’s already on the right path focusing on the big movements, dips, chins, squats, etc.

And I said myself the routine isn’t anything a bodybuilder would follow, but why does the bodybuilding forum have to be just ‘pure bodybuilding?’ How many people are actually competing here? Why can’t it be for people who want to get bigger AND stronger? Why can’t people have a strength-oriented routine, with ‘getting bigger’ as a plus? Why, when someone mentions the word ‘strength’, people release the hounds in that person? Like I said, we are all in the endeavor of getting bigger and stronger, so we should only see constructive criticism in this thread. The guy isn’t competing in powerlifting or lifting like a powerlifter, so I don’t see why he can’t post in this sub-forum.

And the last line isn’t a joke, I don’t see why you think it is. I’ve read a lot of books from the big names of the 50s/60s/70s, and the tone they bring out in their writings about the sense of unity between lifters would dismiss this garbage. Are you not part of the Brotherhood of Iron?[/quote]

No one in the brother hood of iron is lifting 3 days a week. Thats considered active recovery.

If someones routine doesnt even hit all the muscle groups

I realize youre just saying this stuff just for the sake of it. And probably trolling by saying that people have built pretty decent arms with chins and dips. Bullshit. Fuck, this is a retarded discussion. And also trolling by implying that people who actually take bodybuilding seriously arent getting stronger.

Its nice that you read books about ‘big names’. I dont see any ‘big names’ conversing here. Do you think every single person felt the same way because they lived within the same 3 decade span?

Can you answer this honetly please. If you frequented the powerlifting or O-lifting forum and someone came in and posted a thread titled “Critique my hypertrophy routine” and then outlined Jay Cutlers exact split comprised of 2 hour sessions chock full of HS machine work and FST7 training, what do you think would happen?
[/quote]
He’s lifting 4 days a week, and plenty big guys have done that, and he’s even got 5/3/1 mixed in there. CC had a bodybuilder-style routine for 5/3/1.

And yeah I think people can get some decent arms by weighted chins and weighted dips if they do them often enough. Obviously it is not optimal and I recommend that the OP add in 1 exercise for biceps/triceps a week (i.e. 5x10 ez-bar preacher curls and 5x20 band pushdowns). But there is no need to tear him down because he doesn’t have direct arm work.

I will answer your question honestly. The OP in that scenario would get ripped apart, as he should. But that is not the scenario here. The OP here wants to get bigger and stronger, simple as that, and his routine isn’t that far off from a bodybuilder routine, with some minor tweaks. But that is besides the point. In a powerlifting forum, most of those people are competing or intend to. In an O-lifting forum, most of those people are competing or intend to. In this bodybuilding forum, how many people are competing? Most aren’t and most want to simply get bigger and stronger, so the OP is right where he should be.

And where did I say bodybuilders aren’t getting stronger? The two are connected obviously, but if one wants to have a strength-focused routine while getting bigger as well, what’s the problem? That it should automatically be put in the powerlifting forum?[/quote]

I give up.

but why does the bodybuilding forum have to be just ‘pure bodybuilding?’ How many people are actually competing here? Why can’t it be for people who want to get bigger AND stronger?

Your words. You are implying that pure bodybuilding and getting ‘bigger and stronger’ are two different things.

Furthermore. Your opinion about the percentage of people posting in a powerlifting forum who compete is baseless, at best (but more likely is just simply wrong). If I had to hazard a guess and give you the benefit of the doubt - On THIS SITE in particular there may be a greater percentage of competative powerlifters than competitive bodybuilders. Some other sites the opposite may be true. But that is simply irrelevant. The amount of people competing has nothing to do with the focus of a CLEARLY LABELED forum.

Are powerlifters not trying to get bigger and stronger? The answer is obviously yes. So why isnt this kids question in that forum? Clearly his focus is getting stronger. That is the goal of a strength athlete, with size gains coming supplemental. The reverse is true for bodybuilders. Size is the goal and strength is desirable to supplement and allow for further size gains.

Your comments about chin ups dont even merit a response.

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Nevermind, there’s the OP, he should get an avatar.

First off, that is a lot of volume. Are you accumulated to this? If not I would tone it down a bit and use less exercises. I’m not sure if you’ve done 5/3/1 before, but when you rep out on that last set, especially on deadlift day, there’s only so much you can do. Second, are you only able to work out 4 days, why not 5 or 6 or 7? If 4 days fits you, then upper/lower may be the way to go. But I would go look at Cephalic_Carnage’s “How Do You Train” thread and read that front to back. It is a goldmine, especially with altering 5/3/1.

Lower Body
Deadlift 5/3/1
Leg Press 4x15
Leg Extension 4x12
Leg Curls/GHR 4x12-15
Abs

Upper Body
Bench Press 5/3/1
Weighted Dips 4x10
DB Row 4x12-15
Wide Grip Pulldown 4x10
Band Pushdowns 5x20

Lower Body
Hang clean 5/3/1
Back Squat 5/3/1
Front Squat 4x8
Romanian Deadlifts 3x8-12
Abs

Upper Body
Military Press 5/3/1
DB Decline Press 4x10
Chins 4x10
Cable Rows 4x10
Preacher curls 4x10

also check this thread: http://velocity.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/531_hor_hypertrophy

and this for template: Blood and Chalk 1

[/quote]

I think I’ve seen an old post of you posting this Andy, since it was some time back I didn’t get a chance to ask you how you found it - I was researching 5/3/1 assistance programs last month but settled on doing Big Beyond Belief over the next 5 months to get my muscle mass up and improve my pressing and leg strength. You’ve mentioned Military Athlete before, are you in the Armed Forces and I seem to recall somewhere you do the O lifts as well (hope I haven’t confused you with anyone else) - do you do weightlifting as well? Thanks.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
What has this world come to… that is, what has the lifting community come to?

The guy wants to get strong, he wants to get big. People are already tearing him apart, just because he mentioned the word strength. Are we all not for the endeavor of getting both bigger AND stronger? So his routine isn’t ‘pure bodybuilding’, but I don’t see this guy doing a powerlifting routine or competing in a powerlifting meet, thus, he shouldn’t post in the powerlifting sub-forum, he should post here… here in the Bodybuilding forum where folks are trying to get BIGGER and STRONGER.

People show no support these days and are quick to shoot people down. The old-timers of the 50s, 60s, and 70s would be disgusted with the lack of camaraderie. [/quote]

Dude isnt even training his arms.

That routine is nothing close to something a bodybuilder would follow. And obviously the OP has no intention of looking like a bodybuilder.

And I hope that last line is a joke, unless you are 75 years old.

[/quote]
Yeah he’s not training arms, but at least he’s doing some dips and chins which can build some pretty decent arms. I’m not saying his routine is optimal, but he’s already on the right path focusing on the big movements, dips, chins, squats, etc.

And I said myself the routine isn’t anything a bodybuilder would follow, but why does the bodybuilding forum have to be just ‘pure bodybuilding?’ How many people are actually competing here? Why can’t it be for people who want to get bigger AND stronger? Why can’t people have a strength-oriented routine, with ‘getting bigger’ as a plus? Why, when someone mentions the word ‘strength’, people release the hounds in that person? Like I said, we are all in the endeavor of getting bigger and stronger, so we should only see constructive criticism in this thread. The guy isn’t competing in powerlifting or lifting like a powerlifter, so I don’t see why he can’t post in this sub-forum.

And the last line isn’t a joke, I don’t see why you think it is. I’ve read a lot of books from the big names of the 50s/60s/70s, and the tone they bring out in their writings about the sense of unity between lifters would dismiss this garbage. Are you not part of the Brotherhood of Iron?[/quote]

No one in the brother hood of iron is lifting 3 days a week. Thats considered active recovery.

If someones routine doesnt even hit all the muscle groups

I realize youre just saying this stuff just for the sake of it. And probably trolling by saying that people have built pretty decent arms with chins and dips. Bullshit. Fuck, this is a retarded discussion. And also trolling by implying that people who actually take bodybuilding seriously arent getting stronger.

Its nice that you read books about ‘big names’. I dont see any ‘big names’ conversing here. Do you think every single person felt the same way because they lived within the same 3 decade span?

Can you answer this honetly please. If you frequented the powerlifting or O-lifting forum and someone came in and posted a thread titled “Critique my hypertrophy routine” and then outlined Jay Cutlers exact split comprised of 2 hour sessions chock full of HS machine work and FST7 training, what do you think would happen?
[/quote]
He’s lifting 4 days a week, and plenty big guys have done that, and he’s even got 5/3/1 mixed in there. CC had a bodybuilder-style routine for 5/3/1.

And yeah I think people can get some decent arms by weighted chins and weighted dips if they do them often enough. Obviously it is not optimal and I recommend that the OP add in 1 exercise for biceps/triceps a week (i.e. 5x10 ez-bar preacher curls and 5x20 band pushdowns). But there is no need to tear him down because he doesn’t have direct arm work.

I will answer your question honestly. The OP in that scenario would get ripped apart, as he should. But that is not the scenario here. The OP here wants to get bigger and stronger, simple as that, and his routine isn’t that far off from a bodybuilder routine, with some minor tweaks. But that is besides the point. In a powerlifting forum, most of those people are competing or intend to. In an O-lifting forum, most of those people are competing or intend to. In this bodybuilding forum, how many people are competing? Most aren’t and most want to simply get bigger and stronger, so the OP is right where he should be.

And where did I say bodybuilders aren’t getting stronger? The two are connected obviously, but if one wants to have a strength-focused routine while getting bigger as well, what’s the problem? That it should automatically be put in the powerlifting forum?[/quote]

I give up.

but why does the bodybuilding forum have to be just ‘pure bodybuilding?’ How many people are actually competing here? Why can’t it be for people who want to get bigger AND stronger?

Your words. You are implying that pure bodybuilding and getting ‘bigger and stronger’ are two different things.

Furthermore. Your opinion about the percentage of people posting in a powerlifting forum who compete is baseless, at best (but more likely is just simply wrong). If I had to hazard a guess and give you the benefit of the doubt - On THIS SITE in particular there may be a greater percentage of competative powerlifters than competitive bodybuilders. Some other sites the opposite may be true. But that is simply irrelevant. The amount of people competing has nothing to do with the focus of a CLEARLY LABELED forum.

Are powerlifters not trying to get bigger and stronger? The answer is obviously yes. So why isnt this kids question in that forum? Clearly his focus is getting stronger. That is the goal of a strength athlete, with size gains coming supplemental. The reverse is true for bodybuilders. Size is the goal and strength is desirable to supplement and allow for further size gains.

Your comments about chin ups dont even merit a response. [/quote]
I’m surprised you disagree about chin-ups, I feel these in my biceps more than anything else.

“Your words. You are implying that pure bodybuilding and getting ‘bigger and stronger’ are two different things.”

Well I see how you thought how I differentiated the two, but that is not what I meant. What I meant was lifting in terms of what one’s goal is… i.e., training to get a bigger lift by using 1-3 reps, and using accessory lifts after that to further aid that lift.

And let’s just leave at it at that, because I think at this point we can agree that we are tired about arguing about this gayness.

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Nevermind, there’s the OP, he should get an avatar.

First off, that is a lot of volume. Are you accumulated to this? If not I would tone it down a bit and use less exercises. I’m not sure if you’ve done 5/3/1 before, but when you rep out on that last set, especially on deadlift day, there’s only so much you can do. Second, are you only able to work out 4 days, why not 5 or 6 or 7? If 4 days fits you, then upper/lower may be the way to go. But I would go look at Cephalic_Carnage’s “How Do You Train” thread and read that front to back. It is a goldmine, especially with altering 5/3/1.

Lower Body
Deadlift 5/3/1
Leg Press 4x15
Leg Extension 4x12
Leg Curls/GHR 4x12-15
Abs

Upper Body
Bench Press 5/3/1
Weighted Dips 4x10
DB Row 4x12-15
Wide Grip Pulldown 4x10
Band Pushdowns 5x20

Lower Body
Hang clean 5/3/1
Back Squat 5/3/1
Front Squat 4x8
Romanian Deadlifts 3x8-12
Abs

Upper Body
Military Press 5/3/1
DB Decline Press 4x10
Chins 4x10
Cable Rows 4x10
Preacher curls 4x10

also check this thread: http://velocity.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/531_hor_hypertrophy

and this for template: Blood and Chalk 1

[/quote]

I think I’ve seen an old post of you posting this Andy, since it was some time back I didn’t get a chance to ask you how you found it - I was researching 5/3/1 assistance programs last month but settled on doing Big Beyond Belief over the next 5 months to get my muscle mass up and improve my pressing and leg strength. You’ve mentioned Military Athlete before, are you in the Armed Forces and I seem to recall somewhere you do the O lifts as well (hope I haven’t confused you with anyone else) - do you do weightlifting as well? Thanks.[/quote]

I used to be in the Army, as for Military Athlete, I think I mentioned that I prefer it over crossfit. I’ve never done either, but on paper military athlete looks more suitable for me if I was trying out for a SWAT team or SF or something like that.

Yeah I compete in weightlifting, best lifts right now are 264 lbs/319 lbs in the snatch and clean & jerk respectively at a BW of 230 lbs. But I do bodybuilder stuff too, 5x a week I do the Olympic lifts, squats/deadlifts, chin-ups, lower back/abs, and 1x a week I devote a workout to stuff like bench press, dips, triceps/biceps, blast-strap rotator cuff work. Prowler work is thrown in there 3x a week as well.

Andy I appreciate the advice.
I had a further look and came across a template from Eric Cressy.
How does this look

Lower Body
Deadlifts 5x5
Front Squat 4x6-8
DB Lunge 3x8
Hamstring Curls 3x12-15
Core

Upper Body
DB Bench 5x5
DB Row 5x5
Push Press 4x6-8
WG Pulldowns 4x6-8
EZ Curls 3x8-12
Dips 3xFailure

Lower Body
Back Squat 5x5
RDLSs 4x8
Split Squat 3x8
Leg Extensions 3x12-15
Core

Upper Body
Hang Clean and Press 5x5
Chin Up 5x5
Incline Bench 4x6-8
BB Row 4x6-8
DB Curls 3x8-12
V Bar Pushdowns 3x8-12

At this point man, it doesn’t really matter. You have that template, one I recommended, the original template you posted, and then templates on the 2 links that I provided. Pick one and start lifting, see what works for you. PM me if you have any questions or need help.