T Nation

Critique of Cycle for a Friend

Hey Guys,

I have a friend that I am advising on a cycle. He is about 5’8" 175lbs (33yrs old) and very lean (prob about 8%bf). He has a great deal of training experience but has difficulty eating enough to get past his current weight. He also has some issues with his shoulder (bursitis) which keeps him from going too hard on it. He is also fairly scared of needles (passes out) so I may have to inject him the first few times until he gets past it…for this reason i wanted to go mostly long esters. He drinks and doesn’t care to give it up so an oral cycle isn’t a good option. He wants to gain about 10-15lbs of quality mass and stay lean.

Here is the plan I am thinking of for him. Let me know what you guys think.

Cycle
W 1-10 Test Cyp 250mg 2x/w
W 1-4 Deca 100mg 2x/w
W 1-10 Bold Cyp 200mg 2x/w
W 5-10 Mast Enth 100mg 2x/w
Stasis
W 11-15 Test Cyp 50mg 2x/w
Taper
W 16-20 Test Cyp decrease by about 5mg/inj until done
Ancilliaries
W 1-10 Adex 0.25mg EOD tapered during the stasis
W 1-10 HCG 250iu 2x/w
Nolva on hand

The test is obviously the primary compound to give him some mass and crank him up.
The deca for the first few weeks is to help his shoulder and add a little strength to kick it off. I wanted to cut the deca short at just 4 weeks so it was totally gone by the end of the cycle.

The Bold is to help with his hunger throughout, add a little extra pump and stamina during workouts, and hopefully help with vascularity toward the end (he is already very vascular so he should look pretty scary by the end of this).
The Mast will replace the deca in the second half to help him tighten up a bit toward the end and to bind SHBG so the test keeps doing its thing.
Adex to keep estrogen/water retention low.
HCG at a low dose throughout to keep his boys going.

Yes i realize that this is way more complicated than I normally recommend to anyone for a first cycle but there are a lot of specific goals.

So what do you guys think?

FG

Drop the deca and add two more weeks.

I hope this cycle helps him “decide” to eat more. Because after this deal, if he doesn’t eat, he won’t keep any gains.

[quote]LillGuy001 wrote:
Drop the deca and add two more weeks.[/quote]

why drop the deca?

I’ll be honest. I think it looks great. I know that’s in contradiction to the other posters here, but I like the looks of it. The next time I can run a cycle, I plan on running one very similar to this. In fact I might do this exact one.

However, I do find it peculiar that this has been suggested for a first cycle. Maybe a first and only cycle? Just a thought.

World

As mentioned, it’s a bit much for a first cycle but if your gonna be pinning him for a while and keeping watch then it’s a brilliant cycle.
I’d kick his ass for the drinking though :slight_smile:

What’s the estimated volume of the shots if their only going to be two a week? Have you developed his aas food plan yet? How about his training, on and post?
I’m not trying to sound critical, just curious.
Phileaux

4 weeks of Deca is most curious FG, especially at a 200mg a week dosage. I must question how effective that will be. Much like World I too like the willingness to try and cover all bases gear wise. Its certainly thinking outside the box for a first cycle.

In the OP you mentioned he drinks and he won’t quit that. I’m wondering if this is kind of a case of two steps forward, two steps back with your friend? Also if he passes out with needles, again, will he ever get to the point where he can self-pin or will you always be there for him?

You say he’s very lean like 8%bf so I’m wondering about the need for the Mast to replace the Deca. If his shoulders really are as bad as you say it might be worthwhile to extend the Deca to 8 weeks. You could add in proviron if you dropped Mast if you’re worried about his SHBG.
Lot of different directions you could run with this puppy. Where ever it turns out this should be a different one.

the low dose of deca is strictly for assistance with his shoulder problems…i am not really trying to get anything out of it in terms of mass gains…just joint assistance. I also don’t want to run it too long because the cycle was only planned to be 10 weeks so I want the deca to be totally gone before the stasis so it doesn’t fuck with his recovery. 4 weeks at 200mg/w should be more than enough to get some benifit in terms of collegen synthesis but not so much he experiences any of the negative side effects associated with it.

i realize this is more complicated than i recommend for everyone else and going against my own advice but there are some very specific things I am trying to accomplish with the cycle…this will possibly be his only cycle because he only wants to gain/retain 10lbs of lbm when this is all done. he may decide he wants to do another cycle after this but given his height he should look pretty good when this is done.

He is a little on the small side so I would have liked to run him on about 1gm/w test for 10 weeks but I would like to keep sides to a minimum so i decided to run a couple of compounds at a lower dose instead. because of the hunger thing i chose a low dose of boldenone, because of the shoulder issue i chose deca, and because it is summer i chose masteron to finish it.

Masteron doesn’t seem to have the joint issues that winstrol does so i think he should be ok with it…especially after running the deca. i am also using it mostly just to polish him up and get a bit more out of the test towards the end of the cycle. I could do the same with proviron i guess but I think masteron will give him a little something more in terms of density and vascularity. He is already pretty vascular so he should look pretty good when this is in full swing.

injection volume will be about:

test 1.0cc, bold 0.75cc, deca 0.5cc (2.25cc’s total)
test 1.0cc, bold 0.75cc, mast 0.5cc (2.25cc’s total)

note - i decided to reduce the bold to 300mg/w to keep the total androgens to 1gm/w.

This is a little much for injecting delts but he should be ok just rotating between dorsal and ventro gluteal sites given the long esters.

I will be helping him out with diet although he already eats very well (just not enough so I am going to get him to drink protein shakes between meals and try to increase his portion size while on) and he is already training with me (it will be mostly olympic lifts/compounds if anyone wants to know).

I am sure once his body adjusts to eating more he will be fine continuing on with it through his recovery.

in terms of the drinking thing he is a social guy and works in a job where entertaining is something that is required so he can’t avoid booze. he knows it is holding him back in terms of training but life is what it is so I am trying to work around it.

i know that oral toxicity is way overblown but i thought putting a guy that drinks often and ocassional endulges in chemicals on an oral only cycle was pretty risky.

[quote]World1187 wrote:
I’ll be honest. I think it looks great. I know that’s in contradiction to the other posters here, but I like the looks of it. The next time I can run a cycle, I plan on running one very similar to this. In fact I might do this exact one.

However, I do find it peculiar that this has been suggested for a first cycle. Maybe a first and only cycle? Just a thought.

World[/quote]

I thought i would expand on this point because I think it is an important distinction to make…

yes, it is likely going to be the guy’s only cycle. Why does that matter?

For most of us cycling is a continuous thing (ie we are going to keep doing it again and again…cause we want to get as big as we can…I know I do) in that case i think you are best to start simple, test your limits, and then add to that slowly to see how you react to each new compound. otherwise how do you know what you got the best results from…let me put it in real terms:

You start creatine, protein shakes, Carbolin 19, and fish oil all at the same time and gain 10lbs in 4 weeks. what worked the best for you?

You run 500mg/w test and 500mg/w tren and get gyno after 6 weeks. Was it estrogen, progesterone, or prolactin that gave you the gyno?

If you don’t know then you got the right answer…

You might see improved results or negative side effects but you don’t know how big of an impact each had if you add them all at the same time…

everyone is different, everyone reacts different to different compounds, everyone has a different tolerance. How do you know what yours is without doing testing with all other variables constant?

If it is going to be your only cycle then it doesn’t matter because the learning process is a waste of time. You might as well make the most of it and run a bunch of compounds.

I hope that clears things up for everyone.

Well I figured it was his only cycle since he will be avoiding the whole learning process you mentioned.

That is why I asked. I do agree with your logic though in just making one big bang out of it since it is his only chance.

World

Well, maybe this has already been thought of, but why not a bit of EQ for the appetite? I know its too short of a cycle to probably do anything for the physique, but if he has trouble eating enough, you could stimulate his appetite with it. Get him used to eating a bit more, then basically get him to keep eating that much when he’s coming off to keep his gains.

Unless his lack of food is a budget or other issue.

Or did I miss something important like usual?

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Well, maybe this has already been thought of, but why not a bit of EQ for the appetite? I know its too short of a cycle to probably do anything for the physique, but if he has trouble eating enough, you could stimulate his appetite with it. Get him used to eating a bit more, then basically get him to keep eating that much when he’s coming off to keep his gains.

Unless his lack of food is a budget or other issue.

Or did I miss something important like usual?[/quote]

haha…yes, you missed something.

Equipoise is a brand name for Boldenone Undeclynate (sp?)
Boldenone Cypionate is just a generic shorter ester of the same drug.

Sort of like Deca Durabolin is Nandrolone Decanoate and Nandrolone Cypionate is a generic shorter estered version.

I think aragorn is a perfect example of the flip side of things.

He is a very advanced lifter, has specific goals, and would benifit greatly from an advanced cycle…say test, tren, and masteron but because he is likely going to do a lot more cycles I think he’d be better off to pace himself and slowly test his limits/tolerance by starting simple and adding compounds one at a time.

I know it seems kind of hypocratic but there is an important distiction there.

Fuck me. I knew that. Really I did. No seriously. :slight_smile: I’m just being a fucking idiot. Reading Comprehension 101 folks–don’t briefly skim the article you want to comment on. You have to actually read it, otherwise you miss important words and phrases.

And as usual you have excellent advice for me as well. Now that the bug has bitten me though, try as I might I can’t get it out of my head. Human weakness and my inbred desire to maximize whatever I do. However, due to (extremely) recent developments I may not be able to do a cycle at all this summer anymore. If that happens I’ll have plenty of time to think about your excellent advice. /hijack.

Question 2–How long do you plan to keep pinning him if he keeps fainting?

Logical as always FG but allow me to play devils advocate for a second.
Everyone that responded to this thread is a multi-cycle vet. Why? In part because there is a addicting [might be a strong word] effect of gear. There’s an old cliche, “no one does just one cycle.” So the devil says what if he really, really likes the 15lbs he gains? What if he really, really like the relief his shoulders get? What if he is able to overcome his fear of needles? What if he wants to do another one after this?
It is very difficult to overestimate the effect a first cycle, especially a good and powerful one can have on the guy. Most guys I know and I think all of us in here were attracted to the prospective of gaining 15lbs in a couple months and since it worked so well the first time we came back to the well. Sometimes again and again and again.
There is more than one prominent tnation gear forum poster who started off his gear career saying he was going to be a one and done kind of guy.
So if that happens then what would his second cycle look like? I know, I know you cannot plan a second without doing your first. But if he takes such a variety of products the first time, how will he know what to do the second time? Will his joint be better from the four weeks of 200mg Deca or the 10 weeks of Boldy [IMO overshadowed by Deca and underrated for its joint help] or the combination? Will his gains be because he’s riding over a gram a week of gear or mostly because of the 500mg of Test?

Believe me I’m not trying to derail his train by any means. I’m one of the few guys who does not advoate against multi-product first cycles; like when guys wanna start with Deca and Test. However, these are just questions I have based on what I will call the likelihood that the gear-bug will bite him. Anyone willing to do something once is even more likely to do it again a second time. Most people reading this know this to be true, specifically when it comes to the gear game. I know this is sort of a tangent point to the aim of the thread but I think this might be an unconsidered factor. I guess to answer my own question his second potential cycle could just be a repeat of his first with adjusted doses. I don’t know. Its sort of an interesting thought I think.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Fuck me. I knew that. Really I did. No seriously. :slight_smile: I’m just being a fucking idiot. Reading Comprehension 101 folks–don’t briefly skim the article you want to comment on. You have to actually read it, otherwise you miss important words and phrases.

And as usual you have excellent advice for me as well. Now that the bug has bitten me though, try as I might I can’t get it out of my head. Human weakness and my inbred desire to maximize whatever I do. However, due to (extremely) recent developments I may not be able to do a cycle at all this summer anymore. If that happens I’ll have plenty of time to think about your excellent advice. /hijack.

Question 2–How long do you plan to keep pinning him if he keeps fainting?[/quote]

I understand your point about wanting to make the most of your first so I don’t fault you at all. just saying that I knew going in i was going to do a lot of cycles and I wish I would have started off with “just test” for the above reasons like absolutely every vet told me. It’s summer, you wanna get jacked, i get it…I’m just saying think long term. For the record I cut weight better on test only than I did when I was on test, EQ, and Masteron…it’s about diet and training and frankly both of those were better for me on a higher dose of test only.

I plan to help him pin himself slowly if he does decide to do the cycle. I will do the first one for him and help him through the next few but expect to have him do it on his own after that. I think once his brain stops making the association of “this is going to impale and injure me” to “this is going to make me jacked” he will be fine with it. The anxiety should decrease after he has done a few with no problem. If I get stuck injecting him for the whole cycle then I have kinda got to stick with it. Like I said we train together so if I have to inject him after monday and friday sessions it will work out.

[quote]sapasion wrote:
Logical as always FG but allow me to play devils advocate for a second.
Everyone that responded to this thread is a multi-cycle vet. Why? In part because there is a addicting [might be a strong word] effect of gear. There’s an old cliche, “no one does just one cycle.” So the devil says what if he really, really likes the 15lbs he gains? What if he really, really like the relief his shoulders get? What if he is able to overcome his fear of needles? What if he wants to do another one after this?
It is very difficult to overestimate the effect a first cycle, especially a good and powerful one can have on the guy. Most guys I know and I think all of us in here were attracted to the prospective of gaining 15lbs in a couple months and since it worked so well the first time we came back to the well. Sometimes again and again and again.
There is more than one prominent tnation gear forum poster who started off his gear career saying he was going to be a one and done kind of guy.
So if that happens then what would his second cycle look like? I know, I know you cannot plan a second without doing your first. But if he takes such a variety of products the first time, how will he know what to do the second time? Will his joint be better from the four weeks of 200mg Deca or the 10 weeks of Boldy [IMO overshadowed by Deca and underrated for its joint help] or the combination? Will his gains be because he’s riding over a gram a week of gear or mostly because of the 500mg of Test?

Believe me I’m not trying to derail his train by any means. I’m one of the few guys who does not advoate against multi-product first cycles; like when guys wanna start with Deca and Test. However, these are just questions I have based on what I will call the likelihood that the gear-bug will bite him. Anyone willing to do something once is even more likely to do it again a second time. Most people reading this know this to be true, specifically when it comes to the gear game. I know this is sort of a tangent point to the aim of the thread but I think this might be an unconsidered factor. I guess to answer my own question his second potential cycle could just be a repeat of his first with adjusted doses. I don’t know. Its sort of an interesting thought I think.[/quote]

that’s a very good point. I don’t know that he’ll be done for sure. He says that’s all he wants to gain and I think he’d look kinda funny at anything over 200lbs given his height and how lean he is but he may get hooked.

i agree that it is addictive but not in the sense that crack/coke/heroin is where you feel like you need it to get by or feel like crap without it…I kinda liken it to getting your first BJ…people can tell you how much you will enjoy it and you can kinda visualize it but as soon as you experience it you are like “wow, that is much softer and warmer than i figured, I hope this happens frequently”.