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Critique my Workout

Hey guys the following is the workout I was thinking about doing this summer. Tell me what you think.

Workout A
Bench Press - 5/3/1 rep scheme
Front Squat - 5/3/1 rep scheme
Dips - 5/3/1 rep scheme
Incline DB Bench Press - 5X5
Good Mornings - 3X5
Kroc Rows - 3X10

Workout B
Military Press - 5/3/1 rep scheme
Power Clean - 5/3/1 rep scheme
Pull-Ups - 5/3/1 rep scheme
Incline Bench Press - 5X5
Ab Wheel
Barbell Shrugs - 3X10

The plan is to do Workout A on Monday along with some sprints and jump rope. On Wednesday, a long run, jump rope, and jumping drills. On Friday, Workout B with jump rope and mid-distance work (such as 4X400 or something like that). I will also do calf raises everyday.

Well, there it is. Let me know what you think. Any suggestions and comments are welcome.

Thanks!

That’s a lot more conditioning than I’m used to. But then again I’m used to very little conditioning and this a a major flaw of mine.

Personally I wouldn’t do dips or pull-ups in the 5/3/1 rep scheme but that’s me. I like then for accessories and I do accessories at higher reps generally speaking.

If you can handle that level of conditioning and it doesn’t detract from your workouts then I guess it’ll do fine. What are your goals with this program?

[quote]thehooliganmel wrote:
That’s a lot more conditioning than I’m used to. But then again I’m used to very little conditioning and this a a major flaw of mine.

Personally I wouldn’t do dips or pull-ups in the 5/3/1 rep scheme but that’s me. I like then for accessories and I do accessories at higher reps generally speaking.

If you can handle that level of conditioning and it doesn’t detract from your workouts then I guess it’ll do fine. What are your goals with this program?[/quote]
What would you suggest for the dips and pullups? 3x10 or something like that?
Also my goal is to be as strong and fit as possible but I’m willing to give up some strength right now because I’m in terrible shape.

5/3/1 has some good 2-day plans. Why not just follow one of those to the letter? They are designed to allow for lots of conditioning as you have laid out.

As far as the plan you’ve laid out, I agree that dips and pullups on 5/3/1 rep scheme is not a good idea. 3x10 sounds fine if you can do it. 3x10 pullups or dips with good form is no joke.

You have more pushing than pulling. I recommend more pulling.

There is no such thing as 3x10 Kroc rows. Kroc rows are a specific rep scheme and progression for dumbbell rows. If you aren’t do that particular progression, you’re just doing dumbbell rows.

It may be a good idea to have another posterior exercise on B day. Just something simple like back extensions or even some kb swings.

[quote]Silyak wrote:
5/3/1 has some good 2-day plans. Why not just follow one of those to the letter? They are designed to allow for lots of conditioning as you have laid out.

As far as the plan you’ve laid out, I agree that dips and pullups on 5/3/1 rep scheme is not a good idea. 3x10 sounds fine if you can do it. 3x10 pullups or dips with good form is no joke.

You have more pushing than pulling. I recommend more pulling.

There is no such thing as 3x10 Kroc rows. Kroc rows are a specific rep scheme and progression for dumbbell rows. If you aren’t do that particular progression, you’re just doing dumbbell rows. [/quote]
I didn’t know kroc rows had a specific rep scheme. What is it?

[quote]dj20 wrote:
I didn’t know kroc rows had a specific rep scheme. What is it?[/quote]

“Kroc rows” specifically refers to full range dumbbell rows done as one set per arm with the heaviest weight available for maximum reps. (Kroc himself suggests a minimum of 20 reps for the set, so the “heaviest weight available” part may not apply) Some warmup sets are fine, but you can’t really program them as “3x10”, etc. and call them Kroc rows.

[quote]TB284 wrote:

[quote]dj20 wrote:
I didn’t know kroc rows had a specific rep scheme. What is it?[/quote]

“Kroc rows” specifically refers to full range dumbbell rows done as one set per arm with the heaviest weight available for maximum reps. (Kroc himself suggests a minimum of 20 reps for the set, so the “heaviest weight available” part may not apply) Some warmup sets are fine, but you can’t really program them as “3x10”, etc. and call them Kroc rows.[/quote]
Okay I will change that to 1x20 then. Thanks

Is this any better?

A
Bench 5 3 1
Front squat 5 3 1
Dips 50 reps…as many sets as needed
Incline dumbell bench 5x5
Romanian deadlift 3x5
Ab wheel 5 sets

B
Military press 5 3 1
Power clean 5 3 1
Pull ups 50 reps…as many sets as needed
Overhead squat 3x5
Kroc rows 1x20
Ab wheel 5 sets

[quote]dj20 wrote:
Is this any better?

A
Bench 5 3 1
Front squat 5 3 1
Dips 50 reps…as many sets as needed
Incline dumbell bench 5x5
Romanian deadlift 3x5
Ab wheel 5 sets

B
Military press 5 3 1
Power clean 5 3 1
Pull ups 50 reps…as many sets as needed
Overhead squat 3x5
Kroc rows 1x20
Ab wheel 5 sets

[/quote]
It seems better to me. I think you need to include some sort of back movement in the first workout. Dips and incline dumbbells as assistance in the same workout is a lot. Choose one of them and then do some sort of row instead of the other. If you like both of them you can rotate.

Also, is there a particular reason you seem to be using power cleans instead of deadlifts?

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]dj20 wrote:
Is this any better?

A
Bench 5 3 1
Front squat 5 3 1
Dips 50 reps…as many sets as needed
Incline dumbell bench 5x5
Romanian deadlift 3x5
Ab wheel 5 sets

B
Military press 5 3 1
Power clean 5 3 1
Pull ups 50 reps…as many sets as needed
Overhead squat 3x5
Kroc rows 1x20
Ab wheel 5 sets

[/quote]
It seems better to me. I think you need to include some sort of back movement in the first workout. Dips and incline dumbbells as assistance in the same workout is a lot. Choose one of them and then do some sort of row instead of the other. If you like both of them you can rotate.

Also, is there a particular reason you seem to be using power cleans instead of deadlifts?[/quote]
I’m doing power cleans instead of deadlifts because I’ve been working deadlifts really hard for a while. My back is a little sore so I wanted to give it a break. I thought power cleans would be a good substitute because they are a pull from the floor, but aren’t as stressful on the body as deadlifts.

Are the RDLs not enough back work? If not, I can add something else.

I really want to do dips and DB incline in the same week if possible. Any thoughts on how to do this?

Thanks

[quote]dj20 wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]dj20 wrote:
Is this any better?

A
Bench 5 3 1
Front squat 5 3 1
Dips 50 reps…as many sets as needed
Incline dumbell bench 5x5
Romanian deadlift 3x5
Ab wheel 5 sets

B
Military press 5 3 1
Power clean 5 3 1
Pull ups 50 reps…as many sets as needed
Overhead squat 3x5
Kroc rows 1x20
Ab wheel 5 sets

[/quote]
It seems better to me. I think you need to include some sort of back movement in the first workout. Dips and incline dumbbells as assistance in the same workout is a lot. Choose one of them and then do some sort of row instead of the other. If you like both of them you can rotate.

Also, is there a particular reason you seem to be using power cleans instead of deadlifts?[/quote]
I’m doing power cleans instead of deadlifts because I’ve been working deadlifts really hard for a while. My back is a little sore so I wanted to give it a break. I thought power cleans would be a good substitute because they are a pull from the floor, but aren’t as stressful on the body as deadlifts.

Are the RDLs not enough back work? If not, I can add something else.

I really want to do dips and DB incline in the same week if possible. Any thoughts on how to do this?

Thanks[/quote]

No way would I be cutting deadlifts, not for more than a week at least. Your deadlift and overall pulling strength is not going to improve if you stop doing them. A power clean is not a substitute for a deadlift, and there really isn’t any substitute other than DL variations (rack pulls, deficits, bands etc.).

If you can only work out 2 days a week and want to do something based on 5-3-1, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t follow the 2 day template Wendler already laid out.

A few other thoughts:

  1. I would not drop back squats to do front squats. Maybe do a wave of front squats instead of back squats, or work front squats in on day 2 while doing back squats on day 1, but no squats and no deadlifts seems pretty unproductive.

  2. Switch assistance exercises every few weeks. Same muscles, just different but similar movement. And don’t do the same ab/core exercise both days.

  3. As others have mentioned, you need some kind of upper body pulling on day 1.

Why not something along the lines of:

A
Bench 5 3 1
Squat 5 3 1
Tris/Chest: Dips up to 50 reps; DB Presses for reps (incline, flat or decline), CG BP; Illegal Wides
Lats: DB Rows/Kroc Rows; BB Rows; Chest Supported Rows
Posterior Chain: RDLs; Good Mornings, GHRs
Core: Ab wheels; hanging leg raises; front squat holds; BB/DB side bends

B
Military press 5 3 1
Deadlift 5 3 1
Tris/Chest: Similar to A
Lats/Upper Back: Pull Up or Chin Up variations
Overhead Squats or Front Squats
Core: Similar to A

Rock978
How many lifts do you like to do per day? Does it just depend on which ones you do?

[quote]Rock978 wrote:
A few other thoughts:

  1. I would not drop back squats to do front squats. Maybe do a wave of front squats instead of back squats, or work front squats in on day 2 while doing back squats on day 1, but no squats and no deadlifts seems pretty unproductive.

  2. Switch assistance exercises every few weeks. Same muscles, just different but similar movement. And don’t do the same ab/core exercise both days.

  3. As others have mentioned, you need some kind of upper body pulling on day 1.

Why not something along the lines of:

A
Bench 5 3 1
Squat 5 3 1
Tris/Chest: Dips up to 50 reps; DB Presses for reps (incline, flat or decline), CG BP; Illegal Wides
Lats: DB Rows/Kroc Rows; BB Rows; Chest Supported Rows
Posterior Chain: RDLs; Good Mornings, GHRs
Core: Ab wheels; hanging leg raises; front squat holds; BB/DB side bends

B
Military press 5 3 1
Deadlift 5 3 1
Tris/Chest: Similar to A
Lats/Upper Back: Pull Up or Chin Up variations
Overhead Squats or Front Squats
Core: Similar to A[/quote]

I think if the goal is overall athleticism and not necessarily powerlifting strength then front squats and power cleans are ok. Deadlifts and squats will suffer as a result but if that’s not important now then so be it.

[quote]dj20 wrote:
Rock978
How many lifts do you like to do per day? Does it just depend on which ones you do?[/quote]

Generally for the assistance exercises, rep work. So somewhere in the 10-15 rep range with 3-4 sets. But varying volume and assistance can have benefits. Could be something as simple as doing 3x15 for a few weeks, and then upping the weight a bit and doing 3x10 for the next few weeks. If you want to get in better shape (drop fat, better endurance/GPP, etc.) it probably makes sense to keep most of the rep work in this range. But you can always through in a strength wave for 2-3 weeks where you’re working up more towards a 6RM on the barbell movements (BB rows, good mornings/RDLs, CG BP / Illegal Wides etc.) and in the 8 rep range for the DB movements.

As I understand it, OP wants to get stronger but also get in better shape. I just don’t see how dropping deadlifts for power cleans furthers either of those goals. Especially when the power cleans and front squats can be done as one of the assistance exercises. Nothing will build strength like heavy DLs and Back squats, and that strength is the basis of improving athleticism. Take a look at DeFranco’s training for his pro athletes.

A
Bench 531
Front squat/back squat 531
Dips 50 reps
Kroc rows 20
Hanging leg raises five sets
Rdl 3x20

B
Military 531
Power clean/deadlift 531
Pull ups 50 reps
Incline db bench 5x5
Ab wheel five sets
Overhead squat 3x5

How about this?

[quote]dj20 wrote:
A
Bench 531
Front squat/back squat 531
Dips 50 reps
Kroc rows 20
Hanging leg raises five sets
Rdl 3x20

B
Military 531
Power clean/deadlift 531
Pull ups 50 reps
Incline db bench 5x5
Ab wheel five sets
Overhead squat 3x5

How about this?[/quote]

Looks pretty good to me man, I’d say run with it and see how it goes after a couple months. May want to consider changing the assistance exercises after a month or so because of accommodation, but you can cross that bridge when you get there.

I know Wendler says to run a lift through its entire cycle until it needs to be reset before switching a primary movement (e.g. from back squats to front squats or conventional DL to sumo DL), so you’ll probably want to go that way for both of the front/back squat and DL/power cleans. Don’t see much of a takeaway from a strength perspective in doing the front squats first and/or more often, but I’d encourage you to start with a cycle of deadlifts instead of power cleans. I know you say your back has gotten sore from deadlifts, but if that’s the case it’s because either (a) you have a weak back; and/or (b) your form/technique is less than ideal. In either case, not deadlifting anymore is not the solution, and it’s too beneficial of a lift to give up if you don’t have to. If worse comes to worst, your back is really sore and you find it’s hindering the rest of your training sessions, you can always swap in power cleans on the B day when you’re mid-cycle on the other lifts.

[quote]Rock978 wrote:

[quote]dj20 wrote:
A
Bench 531
Front squat/back squat 531
Dips 50 reps
Kroc rows 20
Hanging leg raises five sets
Rdl 3x20

B
Military 531
Power clean/deadlift 531
Pull ups 50 reps
Incline db bench 5x5
Ab wheel five sets
Overhead squat 3x5

How about this?[/quote]

Looks pretty good to me man, I’d say run with it and see how it goes after a couple months. May want to consider changing the assistance exercises after a month or so because of accommodation, but you can cross that bridge when you get there.

I know Wendler says to run a lift through its entire cycle until it needs to be reset before switching a primary movement (e.g. from back squats to front squats or conventional DL to sumo DL), so you’ll probably want to go that way for both of the front/back squat and DL/power cleans. Don’t see much of a takeaway from a strength perspective in doing the front squats first and/or more often, but I’d encourage you to start with a cycle of deadlifts instead of power cleans. I know you say your back has gotten sore from deadlifts, but if that’s the case it’s because either (a) you have a weak back; and/or (b) your form/technique is less than ideal. In either case, not deadlifting anymore is not the solution, and it’s too beneficial of a lift to give up if you don’t have to. If worse comes to worst, your back is really sore and you find it’s hindering the rest of your training sessions, you can always swap in power cleans on the B day when you’re mid-cycle on the other lifts.
[/quote]
Yeah my plan was to do front squats until they stall then switch to back squats. Same with power cleans and deadlifts. I think my form is poor on deadlift so that’s why my back hurts. What about going lighter on deadlifts to work on foem and then work back up to heavy weight?

Thanks!