T Nation

Critique my Nutrition & Supplement Plan

I’m 29 years old, 5’9, 175lbs. Solid Training for 3 years. Began training at 135lbs, 8% BF. Classic ECTO. I wanted to get bigger. Got to 190lbs, 30% BF thru dirty bulking for 2 years of eating and lifting heavy low rep compound movements. Squat and bench went from the bar with no weights to 225 for reps in these past 3 years. This past year I’ve tried to lean out. I’m stuck at 175lbs, 14% BF. I want to keep what muscle I can and get down to 9%. I feel I’m stuck in a plateau. I thought starting the Anabolic Diet would help and I started a training log hoping to get some advice and feedback but I am getting ZERO, so I figured I’d try here.

I’m wondering which supplements I should drop, which ones should I add? Same with food. I have one major set back, I hate vegetables. I will eat everything and anything else, but I struggle big time with the veggies. I know, it’s terrible, especially for this lifestyle. Money is no object either when it comes to my diet and supplements. I am willing to drop everything I have and pick up new if that’s what it will take. I just need some DIRECTION.

I have the drive and dedication, I never miss a meal, I never miss a lift, (you will see how detail oriented I am when you look at my plan) I lift with a female figure athlete who benches 185lbs for reps, motivation is not a problem there, I cardio, I eat, I sleep, I just can’t figure out what the problem is? I will post pictures if it will help you understand what I’m going thru. HELP ME PLEASE

Here’s my plan…

4AM AWAKE
(1) serv Syntrax Nectar Whey Isolate 90/23/0/0
(2) NOW Super Omega 20/0/0/2
(1) EAS CLA w/Tonalin 10/0/0/1
(1) NOW Acetyl L-Carnitine, 500g
(1) NOW Digestive Enzyme
(1) NOW Gluc/Chon/Msm

4:30-4:50AM WARM UP
Foam Roll & Lower Body Mobility

5:05-5:30AM CARDIO
Interval Sprints, 20 minutes
1 serv Scivation Xtend

5:30AM POST CARDIO
Finish Scivation Xtend
(1) Generic CoQ10, 30mg
(1) Generic Calcium, 500mg
(1) NOW Tri Chromium
(1 each) Generic Vit A,B,C,D,E
(1) NOW Tribulus, 500mg
(1) ON Opti Men’s Multi

6AM 1ST MEAL
(2) Whole Omega Eggs 140/12/2/9
2oz Grass Fed Beef 120/12/0/3
(1) Low Carb Tortilla 100/7/5/2.5
28g Shredded Cheese 2% 90/7/0/6

8:30AM 2ND MEAL
1/2 serv ON Whey & Casein Blend 115/23.5/3/0.75
1 tbsp Smart Balance PB 100/4/3/8.5
(2) NOW Super Omega 20/0/0/2

11AM 3RD MEAL
4oz Chicken Breast 100/23/0/1
1oz Almonds 160/6/2/16
(2) NOW Super Omega 20/0/0/2

NOON HEAD HOME TO NAP
1 tsp Sugar Free Metamucil 40/0/0/0
(2) NOW Super Omega 20/0/0/2
(1) EAS CLA w/Tonalin 10/0/0/1
1 serv Scivation Xtend
2g Primaforce Beta Alanine
(1) NOW Acetyl L-Carnitine, 500g
(1) NOW Digestive Enzyme
(1) NOW Gluc/Chon/Msm

1:30PM 4TH MEAL
1/2 serv ON Whey & Casein Blend 115/23.5/3/0.75
1 tbsp Smart Balance PB 100/4/3/8.5
(2) NOW Super Omega 20/0/0/2

3:30PM PRE TRAINING DRINK
1 serv Scivation Vasocharge
1 serv Scivation Xtend
2g Primaforce Beta Alanine
5g AST Micronized Creatine

4:00-4:45PM EDT, 2 Zones, 35 minutes

5PM POST TRAINING
1 serv Nectar Whey Isolate 90/23/0/0
1 serv Scivation Xtend
2g Primaforce Beta Alanine
5g AST Micronized Creatine
(1) Generic CoQ10, 30mg
(1) Generic Calcium, 500mg
(1) NOW Tri Chromium
(1 each) Generic Vit A,B,C,D,E
(1) NOW Tribulus, 500mg
(1) ON Opti Men’s Multi

6PM POST MEAL
(2) Whole Omega Eggs 140/12/2/9
2oz 99% Turkey 60/14/0/0.5
(1) Low Carb Tortilla 100/7/5/2.5
28g Shredded Cheese 2% 90/7/0/6
(2) NOW Super Omega 20/0/0/2

9PM EVENING MEAL
1 serv ON Casein 110/23/3/0.5
1 tsp Sugar Free Metamucil 40/0/0/0
(2) NOW Super Omega 20/0/0/2
(1) EAS CLA w/Tonalin 10/0/0/1
(3) NOW ZMA
(1) NOW Digestive Enzyme
(1) NOW Gluc/Chon/Msm

NEW Totals 2070 231 31 91.5

Maintenance 2800 310 260 60

Money no object? Get some Surge Workout Fuel, some Surge Recovery, and 11-T IMMEDIATELY.
Might as well try some FiniBars too.

Consider the V-Diet

Stop counting calories and just eat some clean foods. There is no way you train hard and eat healthy and remain at 14%. Clean up your diet.

I never count anything. I just never go overboard. Avoid starchy carbs and cheat here and there.

I simply avoid sugar, avoid fried shit, eat some veggies…lots of protein and the occasional clean carb with some cheat days and I stay right around 10% with no counting calories, no cardio and eating foods I enjoy.

You are making it too complicated. See this article: http://www.figureathlete.com/free_online_article/diet_and_nutrition/food_addictions_the_last_stand

[quote]redgladiator wrote:
Money no object? Get some Surge Workout Fuel, some Surge Recovery, and 11-T IMMEDIATELY.
Might as well try some FiniBars too.

Consider the V-Diet[/quote]

Thanks RedG, all jokes aside, I am dead serious about dumping my supplement plan. Outline a Biotest plan for me and I’ll order the shit today. I just got my L-Leucine in the mail, was going to use it like Thibs says to in the “Instant Ketosis” protocal on my carb up Saturdays.

I am searching the V-Diet thread NOW. I appreciate the advice and thank you in advance for anything else you offer. I’ve lurked in the shadows of these forums for a while and your posts are quality reads. I’m honored you dropped knowledge on mine…

[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:
Stop counting calories and just eat some clean foods. There is no way you train hard and eat healthy and remain at 14%. Clean up your diet.

I never count anything. I just never go overboard. Avoid starchy carbs and cheat here and there.

I simply avoid sugar, avoid fried shit, eat some veggies…lots of protein and the occasional clean carb with some cheat days and I stay right around 10% with no counting calories, no cardio and eating foods I enjoy.

You are making it too complicated. See this article: http://www.figureathlete.com/free_online_article/diet_and_nutrition/food_addictions_the_last_stand [/quote]

Great article, thank you. Not really my problem though. I appreciate your advice but your assumption that I don’t eat clean and I don’t train hard is way off base. You can tell from the nature of my post and the detail to my meal plan that I’m not a Troll or a Noob who has just posted “Been lifting serious for 2 months and I eat all day and I can’t gain muscle”.

My diet is very clean. I follow all the T-Nation guidelines. That’s why I’m confused about the stall in progress. The diet I posted was an example of how I might eat if on the Anabolic Diet. How do you know I don’t train hard? We’ve never trained together. A year ago I was 190lbs at 30%. I’m now 175lbs at 14%. Training hard and eating clean is how I made that initial progress.

I avoid sugar, fried shit, eat protein at every meal, etc. The Avatar is my back. I’m thick and strong for 175lbs, I just want this last bit of BF gone. Assuming that I don’t train hard or eat clean is absurd. But don’t get it twisted, I do appreciate you calling me out, that’s what these forums are for. IF I DIDN’T DEFEND MYSELF, WOULDN’T YOU ASSUME YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT ME? I’m the one who asked YOU for help…keep it coming…

Dude you lost 15lbs in a year?? Get on the V-Diet and you could lose that in 4weeks!

And seriously, supplementation overkill.

[quote]jb413 wrote:
Dude you lost 15lbs in a year?? Get on the V-Diet and you could lose that in 4weeks!

And seriously, supplementation overkill.[/quote]

AND DOOOD, SERIOUSLY…This is why people are hesitant to ask for help on these forums. Don’t just say “SUPPLEMENTATION OVERKILL”. TELL ME WHAT YOU ADVISE I DROP. Everything in this program has a purpose in my eyes and I’m at a plateau; so TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK IS OVERKILL and then we can discuss it. It’s like you being a Pittsburgh Steeler fan and saying “The Cleveland Browns SUCK DUDE”. Well yes, we know that, but tell me why they suck, state your opinion, present some useful facts or knowledge, and now we can have an intellectual debate of sorts. After you state your opinion, I may say, WOW jb413, you have a great point, I didn’t realize that, they really do suck. Now I can remove the “Cleveland Browns” from my supplement program (you get the picture, I hope).

I am starting to get the sense that when people ask for help here other posters feel it is their duty to ROAST the original poster’s problem and tell them how un-informed they are. The original poster (ME) already knows he’s got a problem otherwise HE WOULDN’T HAVE POSTED IN THE FIRST F’N PLACE!!!

I know my program is supplement heavy, so I asked in my original post, “what supplements should I drop”?

I’ve seen wrestlers lose 15lbs in 2 days. I realize I could lose that much weight on the V-Diet. You are missing the point. I am not trying to lose weight, I’m trying to lose body fat. I’m doing a body recomposition.

I understand that jb413, that’s why I asked in the original post “TELL ME WHAT TO DROP”. And if I was looking to drop 15lbs, I’d join the wrestling team. I’m doing a body recomposition, losing body fat, not weight. But thank you for your opinion.

Your a walking vitamin

[quote]Viets wrote:
redgladiator wrote:
Money no object? Get some Surge Workout Fuel, some Surge Recovery, and 11-T IMMEDIATELY.
Might as well try some FiniBars too.

Consider the V-Diet

Thanks RedG, all jokes aside, I am dead serious about dumping my supplement plan. Outline a Biotest plan for me and I’ll order the shit today. I just got my L-Leucine in the mail, was going to use it like Thibs says to in the “Instant Ketosis” protocal on my carb up Saturdays.

I am searching the V-Diet thread NOW. I appreciate the advice and thank you in advance for anything else you offer. I’ve lurked in the shadows of these forums for a while and your posts are quality reads. I’m honored you dropped knowledge on mine…

[/quote]

Hi, Glad I could be of help. To be honest most of the supplements you listed I haven’t heard off. I am by no means an expert. Read this if doing the v-diet http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_bodybuilding_velocity/the_ancillary_supplement_guide
I would look to buy all your supplements here before looking elsewhere. (Got to support T-Nation) Remember free shipping for you.

Flameout -this is fish oil + CLA ,simply the best
Superfood -cause you hate veg
BCAA -I don’t know if you are taking these consider them
ZMA -might as well buy the best
SURGE Recovery -excellent PWO drink get original or chocolate
Metabolic Drive -excellent protein blend/taste
HOT-ROX Extreme -potent fat burner
ReceptorMax -has Acetyl-L-carnitine ,Cinnamomum burmanni, R-alpha-lipoic acid, Coenzyme Q10, 4-hydroxyisoleucine
Creatine -get from here support T-Nation
TRIBEX Gold -tribulus

If you’re sure you got money to spend try 11-T and SURGE Workout Fuel looks great.

I don’t know what you should cut out as I don’t know what most of them are but if I was rich I would take it all :slight_smile:

If I can be of anyhelp let me know, I’ve been signed off work for the week with food poison so I got too much time to kill. PM me if you want.

[quote]mfzx25 wrote:
Your a walking vitamin [/quote]

I never get sick. Seriously. But I bet a flu shot costs way less. Not as much fun though. I have a sense of humor about my obsessive supplement use, but in reality, I’ve seen guys who take way more.

Here’s the level of bodyfat I’m dealing with. It’s almost all in my gut. Everywhere else I feel I am good to go.


Here’s a post workout picture from today…

[quote]Viets wrote:
Here’s the level of bodyfat I’m dealing with. It’s almost all in my gut. Everywhere else I feel I am good to go.[/quote]

11-T helped me out incredibly on a cutting diet with that exact looking stomach you have. See that diagonal line on your stomach? around the sides? I had that and the last 2 weeks of my cut using 11-T that line was near non-existant.

[quote]Viets wrote:
Rhino Jockey wrote:
Stop counting calories and just eat some clean foods. There is no way you train hard and eat healthy and remain at 14%. Clean up your diet.

I never count anything. I just never go overboard. Avoid starchy carbs and cheat here and there.

I simply avoid sugar, avoid fried shit, eat some veggies…lots of protein and the occasional clean carb with some cheat days and I stay right around 10% with no counting calories, no cardio and eating foods I enjoy.

You are making it too complicated. See this article: http://www.figureathlete.com/free_online_article/diet_and_nutrition/food_addictions_the_last_stand

Great article, thank you. Not really my problem though. I appreciate your advice but your assumption that I don’t eat clean and I don’t train hard is way off base. You can tell from the nature of my post and the detail to my meal plan that I’m not a Troll or a Noob who has just posted “Been lifting serious for 2 months and I eat all day and I can’t gain muscle”.

My diet is very clean. I follow all the T-Nation guidelines. That’s why I’m confused about the stall in progress. The diet I posted was an example of how I might eat if on the Anabolic Diet. How do you know I don’t train hard? We’ve never trained together. A year ago I was 190lbs at 30%. I’m now 175lbs at 14%. Training hard and eating clean is how I made that initial progress.

I avoid sugar, fried shit, eat protein at every meal, etc. The Avatar is my back. I’m thick and strong for 175lbs, I just want this last bit of BF gone. Assuming that I don’t train hard or eat clean is absurd. But don’t get it twisted, I do appreciate you calling me out, that’s what these forums are for. IF I DIDN’T DEFEND MYSELF, WOULDN’T YOU ASSUME YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT ME? I’m the one who asked YOU for help…keep it coming…
[/quote]

The reason I assumed you were not eating clean is because I assumed you trained hard not the other way around :wink: From personal experience, it’s usually more likely for the nutrition to be off.

Seriously though, I know you are “cutting” but I think you are eating too little calories…2000 calories is a bit low for an ecto who trains hard as hell.

Up the calories a bit. Not too much. 800 calories below maintenance is overkill. Pay attention to your body and go from there. Write down and find what foods work best with YOUR BODY.

I like the TNT Diet better than the AD diet…same principles with low-carb/refeed but includes veggies and more healthful items.

If you don’t get at least 8-9 hours of sleep per night, it’ll be tough to see your abs.

Keep your cardio sessions under 20 minutes and make them harder, not longer. Bodyweight circuits work miracles.

Follow CT’s carb guide:

[quote]Must-have carb sources: green veggies (broccoli, cucumbers, lettuce, spinach, celery, asparagus, etc.)

Can-have carb sources: other veggies (except potatoes), berries (blueberries, raspberries, strawberries, blackberries, etc.)

Occasional carb sources: Other fruits

Rare carb sources: brown rice, whole wheat bread, whole wheat pasta, cream of wheat, potatoes, yams

Should-avoid carb sources: white bread, white pasta, oatmeal

Must-avoid carb source: pastries, cookies, candy and any other junk sugary food [/quote]

  1. If you an ecto as you say, low-carb dieting is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. It will make you fatter in the long run, especially working out twice a day doing glycogen demanding exercise. Guess what? More cortisol => more fat, less muscle.

I am the same way. I followed the low-carb diet for a year, PERFECTLY (all organic food, high dose fish oil… etc.) and I could never lean out. It actually made me fatter. The problem is that here, low-carb seems to work best for the authors, but that isn’t necessarily the case for people like you and I. Body-types like yours can only handle very short-term low-carb periods. Anything over 2 weeks without a massive refeed is SUICIDE. Find out if you are insulin sensitive or not, and which way you trend naturally. Were you eating carbs when you were 9% bodyfat? That’s probably the answer to what you need to return to that state.

Again, I fought it to the death. I really thought all the science was right and I was just doing things wrong. But I had the help of one of the best coaches out there, and IT DIDN’T WORK.

  1. You really don’t eat any food. Stop drinking your calories.

  2. No vegetables, and you say you eat clean? Stop taking a million different generic vitamins and get them naturally.

Those are my tips. Asking for advice on this site is dumb anyway, because nutrition is individual. All you are going to get is a bunch of individualized answers… but the problem is that they are individualized to the poster, not to YOU.

Hate to bust your bubble also but you are more likely close to 18% BF.

[quote]Rhino Jockey wrote:
Viets wrote:
Rhino Jockey wrote:
Stop counting calories and just eat some clean foods. There is no way you train hard and eat healthy and remain at 14%. Clean up your diet.

I never count anything. I just never go overboard. Avoid starchy carbs and cheat here and there.

I simply avoid sugar, avoid fried shit, eat some veggies…lots of protein and the occasional clean carb with some cheat days and I stay right around 10% with no counting calories, no cardio and eating foods I enjoy.

You are making it too complicated. See this article: http://www.figureathlete.com/free_online_article/diet_and_nutrition/food_addictions_the_last_stand

Great article, thank you. Not really my problem though. I appreciate your advice but your assumption that I don’t eat clean and I don’t train hard is way off base. You can tell from the nature of my post and the detail to my meal plan that I’m not a Troll or a Noob who has just posted “Been lifting serious for 2 months and I eat all day and I can’t gain muscle”.

My diet is very clean. I follow all the T-Nation guidelines. That’s why I’m confused about the stall in progress. The diet I posted was an example of how I might eat if on the Anabolic Diet. How do you know I don’t train hard? We’ve never trained together. A year ago I was 190lbs at 30%. I’m now 175lbs at 14%. Training hard and eating clean is how I made that initial progress.

I avoid sugar, fried shit, eat protein at every meal, etc. The Avatar is my back. I’m thick and strong for 175lbs, I just want this last bit of BF gone. Assuming that I don’t train hard or eat clean is absurd. But don’t get it twisted, I do appreciate you calling me out, that’s what these forums are for. IF I DIDN’T DEFEND MYSELF, WOULDN’T YOU ASSUME YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT ME? I’m the one who asked YOU for help…keep it coming…

The reason I assumed you were not eating clean is because I assumed you trained hard not the other way around :wink: From personal experience, it’s usually more likely for the nutrition to be off.

Seriously though, I know you are “cutting” but I think you are eating too little calories…2000 calories is a bit low for an ecto who trains hard as hell.

Up the calories a bit. Not too much. 800 calories below maintenance is overkill. Pay attention to your body and go from there. Write down and find what foods work best with YOUR BODY.

I like the TNT Diet better than the AD diet…same principles with low-carb/refeed but includes veggies and more healthful items.

If you don’t get at least 8-9 hours of sleep per night, it’ll be tough to see your abs.

Keep your cardio sessions under 20 minutes and make them harder, not longer. Bodyweight circuits work miracles.

Follow CT’s carb guide:

Must-have carb sources: green veggies (broccoli, cucumbers, lettuce, spinach, celery, asparagus, etc.)

Can-have carb sources: other veggies (except potatoes), berries (blueberries, raspberries, strawberries, blackberries, etc.)

Occasional carb sources: Other fruits

Rare carb sources: brown rice, whole wheat bread, whole wheat pasta, cream of wheat, potatoes, yams

Should-avoid carb sources: white bread, white pasta, oatmeal

Must-avoid carb source: pastries, cookies, candy and any other junk sugary food

[/quote]

Now that right there is a QUALITY POST. Thank you Rhino.

[quote]ksommer wrote:

  1. If you an ecto as you say, low-carb dieting is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. It will make you fatter in the long run, especially working out twice a day doing glycogen demanding exercise. Guess what? More cortisol => more fat, less muscle.

I am the same way. I followed the low-carb diet for a year, PERFECTLY (all organic food, high dose fish oil… etc.) and I could never lean out. It actually made me fatter. The problem is that here, low-carb seems to work best for the authors, but that isn’t necessarily the case for people like you and I. Body-types like yours can only handle very short-term low-carb periods. Anything over 2 weeks without a massive refeed is SUICIDE. Find out if you are insulin sensitive or not, and which way you trend naturally. Were you eating carbs when you were 9% bodyfat? That’s probably the answer to what you need to return to that state.

Again, I fought it to the death. I really thought all the science was right and I was just doing things wrong. But I had the help of one of the best coaches out there, and IT DIDN’T WORK.

  1. You really don’t eat any food. Stop drinking your calories.

  2. No vegetables, and you say you eat clean? Stop taking a million different generic vitamins and get them naturally.

Those are my tips. Asking for advice on this site is dumb anyway, because nutrition is individual. All you are going to get is a bunch of individualized answers… but the problem is that they are individualized to the poster, not to YOU.[/quote]

This is exactly the kind of advice I’m looking for. Thank you ksommer. The diet I posted was an example of how I’ve been eating on the AD. I’ve only been eating like that for a little under 2 weeks. I was drinking those calories to keep the carbs down. BUT I THINK YOU ARE 100% CORRECT! I need to go back to carbs. This two year bulk was a BAD idea. Now I’m struggling to get back to being lean. I am very grateful for you expressing your opinions and dropping some knowledge on my head. I needed to hear what you just told me. I KNOW THIS IS GOING TO SOUND STOOPID AND SOMEONE WILL FLAME ME FOR ASKING BUT;
HOW DO YOU FIND OUT IF YOUR INSULIN SENSITIVE? IS THERE A TEST YOU TAKE OR A READING LIKE BODY FAT READINGS?

[quote]ksommer wrote:
Hate to bust your bubble also but you are more likely close to 18% BF.[/quote]

what’s the most accurate & cost effective way to have it checked?