T Nation

critique cycle

Hey, I’d like to know what you guys thik about a 10-15 week cycle of:

cip 400 mg/wk
prop 600 mg/wk

tren 600 mg/wk
eq 400 mg/wk

w/ proscar, milk thistle, and est. blocker for sides

goals are to put on lean mass and avoid bloat due to being a competitor…hit me!

Are you missing a few “or’s” in there or are you planning on taking ALL of that every week for 10 to 15 weeks?

That looks like a good one…

I’d limit it to 8 weeks…
Maybe cut the cypionate off at week five, and up your propionate dosage to compensate. Also, you could cut the eq out at week 5 too, and replace it with an oral like winstrol (@50-100mg/day)for the last 3 weeks. These two things will take weeks off recovery time.

Any front load?

You probably don’t need milk thistle as you are using no orals, but it wont hurt. If you use the winny you might want this

Where’s your PCT?

What est.blocker are you using @what dosage?

This post seems a little confused, do you plan on running Cyp and prop OR Tren and EQ OR is it all of them?? Basically this cycle is set up very poorly. Why would you run Cyp AND prop?? I can understand frontloading both for an immediate effect, but after that it’s pointless. You’d be better off running a test blend. Second, you don’t run EQ and Tren Together. You also wouldn’t want to run Tren for 15 weeks unless it was Tren Enanthate. You either want to do Test/EQ or Test/tren. If you want to add in another androgen, then it would have to be an oral. And what about anti Estrogens?? 15 weeks?? Ever heard of suppression??

So, you’re using 1,000mg/week of Test then?

If so, be sure to use arimidex and nolvadex. At least 0.5mg EOD with arimidex and 20mg/day with nolvadex is what most people would need to keep estrogen levels normal.

I like Archaic’s suggestions, in that you should limit total cycle length to 8-10 weeks. The last 2-3 weeks switch to the T-prop only and switch to 1-AD for the EQ. The reason you would want to do that is that EQ and T-cyp have longer half lives so they will be clearing your system during the last 2 weeks, improving your recovery post-cycle.


okay, sorry for the lack of clarity. I’m looking for the best way to use all of these and the best time span for the cycle considering my goals mentioned in the orginal thread.

very concerned w/ sides and it will be my first cycle…i appreciate your responses thus far…keep them coming

TrenFreak: why not run tren and eq in the same cycle? They work in different mechanisms… Eq increases hunger, collagen synthesis, highly affects RBC count. Tren increases strength, aggression, probably helps cut fat.

I was planning a cycle using both, why not?

tren-freak, why wouldnt you want to use tren and eq together?

some more fyi on the method to my madness some of you may have overlooked.

this is my first cycle EVER my receptors are RIPE and ready for consistent growth w/o shocking my body on and off of a bunch of crap.

the stagger pre and post cycles are needed for those w/ burnt out receptors. also, cats doing this type of cycles tend to have more sides…hmm…wonder why…on and off and on and off of too much crap shocking the body

No, i’m not taking 1000 mg./wk of test. the prop is only 100mg/ml so it’s more like 700, but it’s from mex. vet and they lie a bit on potency…probably adds up to 600 or so. my original thread was typed wrong on that note w/ the prop.

prop and cyp are different esters and I won’t have to take it every day as if i did prop alone

don’t take this the wrong way…more critiquing is good…we can all learn something here and i respect your opinions…thanks

"this is my first cycle EVER my receptors are RIPE and ready for consistent growth w/o shocking my body on and off of a bunch of crap.

the stagger pre and post cycles are needed for those w/ burnt out receptors. also, cats doing this type of cycles tend to have more sides…hmm…wonder why…on and off and on and off of too much crap shocking the body."



Also interested, why not Tren and EQ? I like Tren but I’d like the appetite increase of EQ and the tendon strengthening properties.

I don’t see a problem in using tren and eq together. They are both class 1, but as I have previously said I have had awesome results from using deca and tren eod. I think a good protocol would be eq @ 400mg/week along with tren 75-100mg eod. then add a class 2 in there such as dbol, anavar, or winstrol- or dbol for first half and winstrol for the second half and you got yourself one kick ass cycle. Worried about the libido issues? throw in some HCG and use some cilias and you’ll have no problems at all.

As for Tito’s cycle, I don’t know where you heard about “receptor burnout” but your info is inaccurate. The AR does not down-regulate, and that being said many androgens don’t even exert their effects via the AR.

I’ll look the rest of your cycle over and get back to you but from what I have seen so far, it’ll need some serious reworking!

10-15 week cycle of:

cip 400 mg/wk
prop 600 mg/wk

tren 600 mg/wk
eq 400 mg/wk

w/ proscar, milk thistle, and est. blocker for sides

O.k I would run your cycle with the tren at 100mg eod, - you won’t need more because you are running the eq as well (both are class 1)

As for your prop and cyp I’m not sure if you have already purchace these or not but if you have, I would run your cyp first. get a good front (1000-800mg 1st week) and 400mg a week should be
fine there after
After your last injection of cypionate you can wait a week (d/t the long half life of cyp) then begin eod injections of test propinate-stagger you injectons so that tren is injected on the day after and before the propinate.

Heres what your cycle should look like:

week 1

Tren 100mg eod
front load cyp 800-1000mg
eq fron load 800-1000mg
nolva on hand

week 2
Tren 100mg eod
cyp 400mg
eq 400mg
nolva 10mg/day

week 3
Tren 100mg eod
cyp 400mg eod
eq 400mg
nolva 10mg/day
HCG sat, sun, 250 i.u. ( Swale’s weekend protocol)

With switch to test propinate…

REMOVE EQUIPOISE! (once you switch to test propinate, remove the equipoise, as it has a very long half life and will take 3-4 weeks to fall bellow suppressive levels in your body_
ADD ORAL WINSROL! - replace the loss of androgens with oral winstrol! this will help to harden you up and will complement your stack quite nicely since it is a class 2 androgen. You should also see some really great gains from adding this. Any joint soreness should be off set by the equipoise that will still be having an effect in your body.

So here is what it’ll look like…

Test prop 100-150 mg eod (odds)
trenbolone 100 mg eod (evens)
Oral winstrol 75mg ed (50mg in morning, 25 mg in evening)
nolva 10-20mg ed
HCG weekend protocol 250 iu sat,sun

(do this all the way untill the last week of your cycle then begin postcycle recovery immediately!)
This way you end with short acting drugs so there aren’t any residual levels of AAS in your body causing suppression. HCG is taken untill the end of the cycle to maintain testicular size and function. Hope this puts you on the right track! P-22


Absortion alone and common sense tells me not to do that model cycle. By the time anything got absorbed by the body you change it and get nothing due to minimal amounts of anything consistant.

thanks for the input, but…

do you walk on cracks in side walks?


I?m no expert on steroids but have always been fascinated by them and have studied the topic quite a lot. I have done a few cycles in the past with good results. Most everything I?ve read by Prisoner 22 has been spot on and I think it would be foolish to disregard his knowledge like you?re doing.

It would be interesting to know where you?ve received your information regarding this cycle.

It?s your life and your body so in the end the decision is yours??

Good luck.

I made a typing mistake in week 3 - the cyp says “400mg eod” -In haste, I accidently added the ‘eod’ in and it should just read 400mg for the entire week.

Tito: as for your reply to my advice goes, I respect your knowledge and experience when it comes to contest dieting but as for use of steroids, I really think you are out of your league. You are a newbie. I took the time to help you out constructing a cycle from what you had, that would give you great results, all the while factoring in ancillaries and the best chance of a quick post cycle recovery. I fail to understand your remark about “cracks in the pavement”. I think you should spend some time learning about steroids and general pharmacology before you get in the game, because whoever has given you your info or wherever you are getting your info from is way off base. I should let you know that as a nurse I am responsibe for every medication that is given to my patients. I must know as much about these medications as the Physicians do and be competent enough to catch medication errors made by other nurses, physicians and pharmacy. This means I have had training in pharmacology and its effects on physiology and must be able to understand the rationale behind the administration of each and every med - in some cases my patients can have up to 15 differnent medications at a time! My medical background gives me a leg up on most lay people when it comes to understanding Steroids - which after all are just another class of medication. So now that I have tabled my credentials, Why don’t you table yours! - steroid newbie?
Well I could take the time to explain the rationalle behind each and every drug in your cycle and their dosages however I think I basically did that to a certain degree and frankly I don’t feel like wasting anymore time with you. My advice to you is to checkout the steroid newbie thread. P-22

I’ll just clarify on thing however… The first 3 weeks where I laid out the cyp par of the cycle were just example weeks. since I don’t know how long of a cycle is exactly wanted or how much cypionate the individual has I just laid out the first 3 weeks up to and including the first doses of HCG. I would say if the cycle was a 3 month cycle that some point after the 6 week mark the switch to propinate should be made. P-22

Tito, that seems like a fairly ungrateful way to thank P22 for his time and knowledge…especially seeing as how he is arguably one of the most knowledgeable vets on the board and you have trouble constructing a simple cycle.

I’m not doggin ya for not taking his advice. You don’t have to; maybe you prefer another protocol. That’s cool. But you could be a bit more appreciative when people give you the help you asked for.


If I’ve offended you and or your education, then excuse me. However, As an educated individual w/ a Master’s Degree I tend to take what people say with a grain of salt.

I read things that are reputable and don’t pick up magazines due to their ignorance. Subjective info. does little for me. I read into many steroid profiles to learn.

I have no problem admitting I’m a newbie, but not when it comes to the fitness world. I’m feeling my way around steroids through numerous sources.

I’m beyond where you are in the bodybuilding world. I just took 2nd place overall in a pro qualifier w/ the NGA. That’s drug-free bodybuilding. I’m thinking about turning to the dark side and am digging until I can make an educated decision.

You’re beyond where I am when it comes to steriods, meds., and nursing. It’s all good in the hood.

However, from what I’ve read…changing cycle criteria EVERY week including dosages and introducing new drugs isn’t recommended anywhere I’ve seen thus far that’s published.

The bottom line is, I respect your opinion, but will take it w/ a grain of salt just like anything not published. Sorry to offend once again

Why don’t you post your pics Tito?

And unless your Masters was related to the health field I don’t care how much education you have, I still consider you a “lay person”.

And btw I wasn’t switching drugs in your cycle. Just esters. You start with a long acting ester of test in the (cypionate) and you switch to a shorter acting ester in the propinate ester. These are the drugs you said you had, and taking them at the same time is pointless because THEY ARE THE SAME DRUG! So I reformated your cycle and made it Better

Now why is it good to switch to a shorter acting ester OF THE SAME DRUG later in a cycle? Its good because you allow time to clear the long acting drug from your system while using the shortacting version of the drug to maintain your blood levels at amounts neccessary for muscle gain. AT the end of your cycle the long acting esters have cleared and the shortacting esters clear in no time, giving you a firm point where you know absolutely that these drugs have cleared and you can begin a successful recovery protocol. If you don’t do it this way and you use the long acting esterfied drugs all the way to the end of your cycle, then these drugs could be activly suppressing your htpa in your system anywhere from 3 to 6 weeks. During this time period muscle growth would be down and a recovery attempt would be not worth your time or money due to these long acting esters still releasing into your sytem. On top of this the longer these drugs remain suppressing your system, the longer your post cycle recovery is going to take… ARE WE CLEAR? That is why when cycling steroids we frontload and then time our cycles so that all esterfied steroids clear at the same time. You want the steroid in your body and working, get you gains, then you want it gone from your system!

This is the same reason I advised that you discontinue the equipoise at week 6 of your 12 week cycle. Equipoise can take up to 6 weeks to clear. This means the drug would still be releasing into your body an actively exerting an effect for 6 weeks! Just because you are not injecting a drug does NOT mean you are not ON that drug. At week 6 I advised adding an ORAL - winstrol. I gave you the dose and described how to take it. and why. I didn’t switch drugs I ADDED a drug! Winstrol is a class 2 Androgen and binds with the microsomal AR thereby complementing your stack, and adding some extra strength and hardness I have used this with great success many times and many others on this site could attest to this that it is a great addition for finishing off your cycle with.

and P.S. If you could understand the logic/ rationale and reasoning behind all this then it is my firm opinon that you are hope less and should stay as far away from steroids as possible.