T Nation

Creationism vs Evolution


#1

"An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral."
--- Spencer Tracy in...

One of the most powerful scenes you'll ever watch. Spencer Tracy is easily the greatest actor who ever lived.


Roe v. Wade: 42 Years in the Past
#2

Creationism vs Evolution

The latter one wins. Big time.

It also gets the chic.


#3

Pretty good clip. Thanks, HH!


#4

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Pretty good clip. Thanks, HH![/quote]

Glad you enjoyed it. Its based off the Scopes Monkey Trial, with Tracy being ‘Clarence Darrow’ (considered one of the best lawyers ever).


#5

[quote]asusvenus wrote:
Creationism vs Evolution

The latter one wins. Big time.

It also gets the chic.[/quote]

hmmm . . . . aww man, I’m just too tired after a killer workout to even start on this . . . pity.

Reminds me of the time I was going to pull an all-nighter with Heather and Trixie in Las Vegas - I was all set to go monkey-hanging-from-the-chandelier wild - leave the bed burned to ashes - funky-turtle-loving nuts with these fine ladies, before Iknew what happened - they hit with me a stun gun and when I woke up they had me hog-tied and nekkid on the bed and they was both wearing spurs and carrying english riding saddles -

Point of the story is that just because it seemed a natural conclusion that some awesome riding was going to be done didn’t necessarily mean I had the sequence and roles in the actual order in which it would be played out . . . btw - never put butter on rope burns!! Aloe vera juice directly from the plant is best . . .


#6

Spencer Tracy is great. That movie, not so much. It’s a silly, inaccurate portrayal of the actual trial; moreover, it’s a farce of the actual issues at stake. Anyone who takes this film seriously as a portrayal of “creationism v. evolution” (whatever that means, lol!) is a flipping idiot. It’s merely propaganda meant to flatter so-called “evolutionists.”


#7

I see no need to compare magic to science.

Regardless, nice acting.


#8

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
I see no need to compare magic to science.

Regardless, nice acting.[/quote]

right, you know, I mean what was Darwin thinking? Sheesh - animals magically transitioning from one species to another without leaving any inter-stage hybrid-species to be found.

Surprised the hell out of the first wombat when it morphed into the kangaroo - it tried and tried to get its mate to let it back in the den - but noooo - no magically-changed roo was getting into her bed no matter how big his feet were . . . .

I am seriously insane - I need meds . . .


#9

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Spencer Tracy is great. That movie, not so much. It’s a silly, inaccurate portrayal of the actual trial; moreover, it’s a farce of the actual issues at stake. Anyone who takes this film seriously as a portrayal of “creationism v. evolution” (whatever that means, lol!) is a flipping idiot. It’s merely propaganda meant to flatter so-called “evolutionists.” [/quote]

Of course, it is a movie not a documentary. It is intended to spark thought and that’s Tracy message in the movie. “The Bible is a good book but it is not the ONLY book.” and “How do you know that God didn’t spake to Charles Darwin?”.

Those are money quotes delivered by a sheer genius.


#10

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Pretty good clip. Thanks, HH!

Glad you enjoyed it. Its based off the Scopes Monkey Trial, with Tracy being ‘Clarence Darrow’ (considered one of the best lawyers ever).

[/quote]

I’m tempted to watch the whole thing, based of that clip alone. Acting of that calibre is rare these days.


#11

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
I see no need to compare magic to science.

Regardless, nice acting.

right, you know, I mean what was Darwin thinking? Sheesh - animals magically transitioning from one species to another without leaving any inter-stage hybrid-species to be found.

Surprised the hell out of the first wombat when it morphed into the kangaroo - it tried and tried to get its mate to let it back in the den - but noooo - no magically-changed roo was getting into her bed no matter how big his feet were . . . .

I am seriously insane - I need meds . . . [/quote]

I’m pretty sure evolution didn’t happen overnight.


#12

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
I see no need to compare magic to science.

Regardless, nice acting.

right, you know, I mean what was Darwin thinking? Sheesh - animals magically transitioning from one species to another without leaving any inter-stage hybrid-species to be found.

Surprised the hell out of the first wombat when it morphed into the kangaroo - it tried and tried to get its mate to let it back in the den - but noooo - no magically-changed roo was getting into her bed no matter how big his feet were . . . .

I am seriously insane - I need meds . . . [/quote]

dude, don’t try to hide your gift with meds.

regarding the film clip:
state run, compulsory education is an infringement on the rights of the parents and the children.
they are allowed to be outraged about what is being taught to their children in programing centers cleverly labeled as “schools”. It makes their job of imparting their knowledge and beliefs to their children even harder than it needs to be.

and while I am an unashamed “creationist” as alluded to in the “who is Jesus?” thread, it’s beside the real point - mandatory attendance to state run institutions is an infringement of a persons rights to very basic freedoms.


#13

…you know what they say don’t you: in a seemingly infinite universe, given enough time, the chances of life spontaneously evolving is 1/1…


#14

[quote]Makavali wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
I see no need to compare magic to science.

Regardless, nice acting.

right, you know, I mean what was Darwin thinking? Sheesh - animals magically transitioning from one species to another without leaving any inter-stage hybrid-species to be found.

Surprised the hell out of the first wombat when it morphed into the kangaroo - it tried and tried to get its mate to let it back in the den - but noooo - no magically-changed roo was getting into her bed no matter how big his feet were . . . .

I am seriously insane - I need meds . . .

I’m pretty sure evolution didn’t happen overnight.[/quote]

that’s where it gets a bit sticky, if it didn’t happen in leaps from one species to the next, such as an archeopteryx laying eggs that hatched as hawks or condors or something, then where are the intermediate species?

natural selection does take place however, survival of the fittest and such. within a species, those that have phenotypes that are best adapted to their environment pass on the genetic predispositions to their offspring. I’m not agreeing with the idea that genotypes ever modify favorably however.

I haven’t presented these statements to change anyone’s mind, just to explain why I hold to my particular stance :slight_smile:


#15

Why can’t it be both?


#16

[quote]miroku333 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
I see no need to compare magic to science.

Regardless, nice acting.

right, you know, I mean what was Darwin thinking? Sheesh - animals magically transitioning from one species to another without leaving any inter-stage hybrid-species to be found.

Surprised the hell out of the first wombat when it morphed into the kangaroo - it tried and tried to get its mate to let it back in the den - but noooo - no magically-changed roo was getting into her bed no matter how big his feet were . . . .

I am seriously insane - I need meds . . .

I’m pretty sure evolution didn’t happen overnight.

that’s where it gets a bit sticky, if it didn’t happen in leaps from one species to the next, such as an archeopteryx laying eggs that hatched as hawks or condors or something, then where are the intermediate species?

natural selection does take place however, survival of the fittest and such. within a species, those that have phenotypes that are best adapted to their environment pass on the genetic predispositions to their offspring. I’m not agreeing with the idea that genotypes ever modify favorably however.

I haven’t presented these statements to change anyone’s mind, just to explain why I hold to my particular stance :)[/quote]

A big point of the movie is how wrong it is to have a closed mind. If overwhelming evidence of evolution became apparent, would you still reject it?

I hope that you’ll watch the clip anyway, just to see what a superb actor Tracy was. The man is pure genius. :slight_smile:


#17

[quote]miroku333 wrote:

regarding the film clip:
state run, compulsory education is an infringement on the rights of the parents and the children.
they are allowed to be outraged about what is being taught to their children in programing centers cleverly labeled as “schools”. It makes their job of imparting their knowledge and beliefs to their children even harder than it needs to be.

and while I am an unashamed “creationist” as alluded to in the “who is Jesus?” thread, it’s beside the real point - mandatory attendance to state run institutions is an infringement of a persons rights to very basic freedoms.[/quote]

Where do you live that has “mandatory attendance to state run institutions”? I went to a private school. I knew people who were home schooled, and I now know parents who home school. Are you more concerned about the standards forced upon home schooling? Do you not, for example, want to teach about science or something?

Are you perhaps arguing that schooling itself shouldn’t be mandated?


#18

[quote]miroku333 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
I see no need to compare magic to science.

Regardless, nice acting.

right, you know, I mean what was Darwin thinking? Sheesh - animals magically transitioning from one species to another without leaving any inter-stage hybrid-species to be found.

Surprised the hell out of the first wombat when it morphed into the kangaroo - it tried and tried to get its mate to let it back in the den - but noooo - no magically-changed roo was getting into her bed no matter how big his feet were . . . .

I am seriously insane - I need meds . . .

I’m pretty sure evolution didn’t happen overnight.

that’s where it gets a bit sticky, if it didn’t happen in leaps from one species to the next, such as an archeopteryx laying eggs that hatched as hawks or condors or something, then where are the intermediate species?

natural selection does take place however, survival of the fittest and such. within a species, those that have phenotypes that are best adapted to their environment pass on the genetic predispositions to their offspring. I’m not agreeing with the idea that genotypes ever modify favorably however.

I haven’t presented these statements to change anyone’s mind, just to explain why I hold to my particular stance :)[/quote]
You have a grandfather, correct? And you are alive correct? Hmm. You didn’t just suddenly happen from your grandfather… Ah there was an intermediary!

If you actually study biology further, you’ll find that the term “species” is only made possible by extinctions that allow for clear differences between animals to be made clear.

One other example; there exists an valley, on side of which is one species of bird (I forget which, but say swallow), and on another side is a different species of swallow. These two are defined as separate species because they cannot interbreed. However, in an unbroken line around the valley are all the intermediate birds, who can interbreed.

So x can’t mate with z, but x can mate with y and y can mate with z.

In fact though there have been intermediate fossils found as in the ones showing the movement of the blow hole and changes in flippers to legs in ancient whale and hippo ancestors until we get to the modern day hippo.

Once genetics becomes advanced enough fossils will be almost irrelevant as we will be able to see the links in the genomes themselves. I wonder then what excuses the creationists will conjure.


#19

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Where do you live that has “mandatory attendance to state run institutions”? I went to a private school. I knew people who were home schooled, and I now know parents who home school. Are you more concerned about the standards forced upon home schooling? Do you not, for example, want to teach about science or something?

Are you perhaps arguing that schooling itself shouldn’t be mandated?

[/quote]

(please read this in the non-argumentative tone it is intended)
private schools must be licensed by the state.
and home schooled children must take standardized tests designed by the state, to ensure proper indoctrination of state approved ideology.
I was home schooled 7th-12th grade btw, and we were required to take these tests annually, while the public schools in our area administered them every four years.

I feel there is a great deal of difference between schooling and education.

parents are responsible for their children for good or ill.
even though both of my parents had to work when I was very young, my mother still managed to teach me how to read and do simple addition before I was 5 years old.

additionally, regardless of where your children are educated (I use the term loosely here) your taxes are still used to pay for public schools.

and yes, I am in fact against the idea of compulsory education


#20

[quote]Jab1 wrote:
miroku333 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
I see no need to compare magic to science.

Regardless, nice acting.

right, you know, I mean what was Darwin thinking? Sheesh - animals magically transitioning from one species to another without leaving any inter-stage hybrid-species to be found.

Surprised the hell out of the first wombat when it morphed into the kangaroo - it tried and tried to get its mate to let it back in the den - but noooo - no magically-changed roo was getting into her bed no matter how big his feet were . . . .

I am seriously insane - I need meds . . .

I’m pretty sure evolution didn’t happen overnight.

that’s where it gets a bit sticky, if it didn’t happen in leaps from one species to the next, such as an archeopteryx laying eggs that hatched as hawks or condors or something, then where are the intermediate species?

natural selection does take place however, survival of the fittest and such. within a species, those that have phenotypes that are best adapted to their environment pass on the genetic predispositions to their offspring. I’m not agreeing with the idea that genotypes ever modify favorably however.

I haven’t presented these statements to change anyone’s mind, just to explain why I hold to my particular stance :slight_smile:
You have a grandfather, correct? And you are alive correct? Hmm. You didn’t just suddenly happen from your grandfather… Ah there was an intermediary!

If you actually study biology further, you’ll find that the term “species” is only made possible by extinctions that allow for clear differences between animals to be made clear.

One other example; there exists an valley, on side of which is one species of bird (I forget which, but say swallow), and on another side is a different species of swallow. These two are defined as separate species because they cannot interbreed. However, in an unbroken line around the valley are all the intermediate birds, who can interbreed.

So x can’t mate with z, but x can mate with y and y can mate with z.

In fact though there have been intermediate fossils found as in the ones showing the movement of the blow hole and changes in flippers to legs in ancient whale and hippo ancestors until we get to the modern day hippo.

Once genetics becomes advanced enough fossils will be almost irrelevant as we will be able to see the links in the genomes themselves. I wonder then what excuses the creationists will conjure.
[/quote]

valid points.
yes I have a grandfather (2 in fact! :wink: ) I am the same species.

the info about the swallows is interesting, as well as the interpretation of the placing of blow holes as timelined events.

the swallows (or whichever bird) I will maintain are all individual species with much in common.

the placement of blow holes I interpret much like finger prints, or the color of an animals fur. the exact placement does not mean a movement towards another species, the more favorable placements survived.
and regarding evolution of flippers to legs or vice-versa, I will again follow the line acknowledging similarities between individual species.